Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Peer Landa]

Nobody is attacking Tom Lowe. He is repeatedly insulting people who voice their opinions. "I'm sick of crybabies" is neither professional nor moderator - like.

But it's very professional of you to call me a "douchebag"...?

-- peer

 

[Dane Henry]

I just wanted to say how happy I am about these new Sony cameras..... because I can buy my Epic.

me too

-dane

 

[John semikian]

Just sitting in the Facebook chat with Sony and it appears they won't be announcing the price today. Back to Jim and Jarred to see who draws their line in the sand first.

really? that's interesting.

so now what? RED waits a little longer to hear what Sony has to say?

Come on Jim and Jarred just screw it. announce that the EPIC is dropping to $10k they can't touch you at that price point. J/K a man can dream can't he? i'll settle for $12K lol

 

[Rob Ruffo]

really? that's interesting.

so now what? RED waits a little longer to hear what Sony has to say?

Come on Jim and Jarred just screw it. announce that the EPIC is dropping to $10k they can't touch you at that price point. J/K a man can dream can't he? i'll settle for $12K lol

Jim and Jarred are not in the business of destroying the professional camera market, so that funding future R&D is impossible. Scarlet may drop. Be happy, buy a scarlet. Until the MX upgrade just 2.5 years ago, you could not get a camera as good as Scarlet at any price.

 

[charles lim yi yong]

is ARrri elexa dropping their prices?

 

[Mike Kushner]

The Epic will be a more relevant day to day tool when transcoding is a thing of the past. In my television and advertising world, that is the single most common reason producers are turned off by RED. In my opinion they will look for any other camera format that doesn't require hours and hours of transcoding prior to edit.

Instead of price wars, and trying to figure out how to stuff more "k" in the camera...they should make a less time consuming workflow solution.

The expense, and weight of the Meizner module and having to carry a new style of media card, a new and different card reader and always being saddled with the weight of wireless i don't need 90% of the time...makes that ProRes solution in the Meizner module undesirable for me.

Make the workflow simpler and less time consuming, and RED will be more competitive in the market place. (in my opinion) I'm extremely reticent to invest in any more RED products until there is a better solution to transcoding.

 

[John semikian]

Jim and Jarred are not in the business of destroying the professional camera market, so that funding future R&D is impossible. Scarlet may drop. Be happy, buy a scarlet. Until the MX upgrade just 2.5 years ago, you could not get a camera as good as Scarlet at any price.

Jesus Rob chill out man.. I can hope whatever I wanna hope plus I was kidding.. U remind me of a friend of mine, when a bets on a sports team & loses he gets so angry (I like the term butt hurt) that he hopes the entire team dies in a crash on the plane ride home. I mean seriously man, we all invest . Sometimes we get in at the right time and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we just lose cause of bad luck. I think what I'm trying to say is, go have a drink & try to relax. I for one would like to see RED go back to the days where you could get the best they had to offer for under $20k.

 

[Paul Harb]

they dont have to...

is ARrri elexa dropping their prices?

 

[charles lim yi yong]

i thought red epic is up there with arri alexa - why are we racing to the bottom?
if they want to drop drop the prices on the modules and the add ons, that would be nice.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Jim and Jarred are not in the business of destroying the professional camera market, so that funding future R&D is impossible. Scarlet may drop. Be happy, buy a scarlet. Until the MX upgrade just 2.5 years ago, you could not get a camera as good as Scarlet at any price.

wow Rob really, are you THAT nervous that in your last few posts you have accused Jim of having a "change of attitude" and now you are saying they will be interested in destroying the professional camera market if they lower the price beyond your hopes? really? really?

Dude, please get off of here and start focusing on ways you will make money with your Epic. Seriously, you are right in that RED has DELIBERATELY DESTROYED THE PARADIGM of the PRO CAMERA MARKET and guess what...??? if they COULD make 8K Cameras for 8K... they WOULD!

Jim is cool like that... RED has never been about money... so get over this denial and campaign of veiled insults ... and accept that your 6 month old camera shot its first movie 2 years ago. They are SORRY they have to do this and are doing what they feel is best. OK, Im done defending this move... but I seriously fear your reaction when the price does come out... as your assumptions are pretty harsh bro.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Instead of price wars, and trying to figure out how to stuff more "k" in the camera...they should make a less time consuming workflow solution.

(Y)

there is so much more I would like to see before more K's and price wars...

4k monitors,
new raw accelerator cards,
4k projectors,
reasonable priced lens motors,
PL-lenses in stock,
good ergonomics,
new sensors for higher DR and even more natural look...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Dude, please get off of here and start focusing on ways you will make money with your Epic. Seriously, you are right in that RED has DELIBERATELY DESTROYED THE PARADIGM of the PRO CAMERA MARKET and guess what...??? if they COULD make 8K Cameras for 8K... they WOULD!

Jim is cool like that... RED has never been about money... so get over this denial and campaign of veiled insults ... and accept that your 6 month old camera shot its first movie 2 years ago. They are SORRY they have to do this and are doing what they feel is best. OK, Im done defending this move... but I seriously fear your reaction when the price does come out... as your assumptions are pretty harsh bro.

To Robs defence... wow, what a rant..

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I don't suggest going with a price factor as a competitive advantage.
That was back then.

"Everything changes..."

If the production costs have decreased, there is another option.

Which doesn't include a sudden significant loss of perceived value of own products, or loss of stable market positioning.
Or the race to the bottom.

Option still giving Red a unique competitive advantage, still keeping up with "obsolescence obsolete" and still keeping its "high end" perception.


Price reduction re-directed to included sensor upgrade.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

wow Rob really, are you THAT nervous that in your last few posts you have accused Jim of having a "change of attitude" and now you are saying they will be interested in destroying the professional camera market if they lower the price beyond your hopes? really? really?

Dude, please get off of here and start focusing on ways you will make money with your Epic. Seriously, you are right in that RED has DELIBERATELY DESTROYED THE PARADIGM of the PRO CAMERA MARKET and guess what...??? if they COULD make 8K Cameras for 8K... they WOULD!

Jim is cool like that... RED has never been about money... so get over this denial and campaign of veiled insults ... and accept that your 6 month old camera shot its first movie 2 years ago. They are SORRY they have to do this and are doing what they feel is best. OK, Im done defending this move... but I seriously fear your reaction when the price does come out... as your assumptions are pretty harsh bro.

I have not accused Jim of any such thing. There is a difference between shifting a paradigm for the better and destroying your customers business model. I understand that, so does Jim, obviously, through his past behavior and I'm sure moving forward as well, so should you.

Doing what you describe would not be "cool" anymore than being a Steadicam operator and charging $50 a day is "cool", any more than Chinese manufacturers undercutting western ones are cool. Jim is not "cool like that"

Offering really cheap Scarlets is cool. He does that.

All businesses are about money. And that's 100% fine as long as its done with respect.

If my business were not about money, I would be screwing over my investors, and that would not be "cool" Without investors I could not produce what we are producing and would have to fire many of the people who work for me, also not cool.

Anyone here saying production should not be a for-profit business in order to be "noble and cool" is a hobbiest with another day job who resents the pro world for whatever reason. (I am not accusing you of being this but in general, it's true) Part of the definition of pro is that you make $$$ for what you do.

Honestly, grow up, and actually read a person's post before making accusations like that.

 

[Adam Johnson]

The alleged competitive pricing ($16K-ish for F5 and $22K-ish for the F55) of the new Sony cameras is a POSITIVE for EVERYONE!!! No way around it unless you are a camera company, or rental business I guess....in that case, I say technology advances everyday. You should have realized that before you went into business....

Even though Sony still sells the F65 at an outlandish price IMO $85K and the Alexa remains WAY overpriced (I don't expect that to change much). As some have said before, the "Prestige" of owning an Arri camera allows them to gauge studios and customers willing to pay a lot more for the "name." In then end thats your choice.

RED has the best name in my book (not that I care about names anyways!) and they are not gouging customers...they price accordingly.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I don't suggest going with a price factor as a competitive advantage.
That was back then.






If the production costs have decreased, there is another option.

Which doesn't include a sudden significant loss of perceived value of own products, or loss of stable market positioning.
Or the race to the bottom.

Option still giving Red a unique competitive advantage, still keeping up with "obsolescence obsolete" and still keeping its "high end" perception.


Price reduction re-directed to included sensor upgrade.

+10 000

 

[Rob Ruffo]

The alleged competitive pricing ($16K-ish for F5 and $22K-ish for the F55) of the new Sony cameras is a POSITIVE for EVERYONE!!! No way around it unless you are a camera company, or rental business I guess....in that case, I say technology advances everyday. You should have realized that before you went into business....

Even though Sony still sells the F65 at an outlandish price IMO $85K and the Alexa remains WAY overpriced (I don't expect that to change much). As some have said before, the "Prestige" of owning an Arri camera allows them to gauge studios and customers willing to pay a lot more for the "name." In then end thats your choice.

RED has the best name in my book (not that I care about names anyways!) and they are not gouging customers...they price accordingly.

I don't care about names either (although I do very much personally like Jim and Jarred). However, the clients who keep the lights on here, and allow us to buy Red gear and help finance the next cool thing for all very much do.

22k requires $$$ add-ons to get to 4K (and that price is only a guess, not actually announced) , and does not include RAW in any way shape or form or a super-smart Canon mount as Red offers for only $800. No 5K to be seen either, which does make a visible and practical difference in my observation, even if finishing in 1080p

 

[Phil Holland]

i thought red epic is up there with arri alexa - why are we racing to the bottom?

It is and in some ways better. This is not about racing to the bottom of any undefined price or technology level. Red has always been about bringing high quality digital motion picture cameras into the market at reasonable prices.

The Red One was released in 2007. The Epic in 2010. The Scarlet in 2011. The big guys, many of whom stated that 4K wasn't needed or desired btw, are now coming to the show. 4K is certainly the future in digital imaging and currently the $12,000-$25,000 is the target for the "prosumer" cameras on the way. There will continue to be and will be new $50k-$100k systems out there that are the flagships. Red's been at the 4K game now for about 5 years and they want to get their cameras out there in peoples hands. They spent a whole bunch of money opening up a production facility in Irvine. They didn't open that facility with the intent of selling very few cameras at very high price. That isn't a good business model for a new company, especially breaking into this particular market. With newer technology comes advancements in sensors, media, and manufacturing. All of those things effect cost. And now on top of that there's legitimate competition here and on it's way. Red is adapting because of this. If they don't it would be worse for us as owners.

The price adjustment (which we still don't know how much officially) is initially going to be a difficult pill to swallow, especially for owner/operators and smaller rental houses who purchased cameras 2-6 months ago. However, it would be a harder pill to swallow tomorrow when those cameras won't be getting work by somebody out there using the newest 4K body on the market and undercutting your rates anyways. For Red, when people are deciding on a new camera to purchase they are going to be looking hard at the new Sony bodies in particular and both the Epic and the Scarlet need to be viable against that newer technology. Price is one part of the equation, but Dragon is going to be playing a much larger role than many people think.

Imagine if this thread was not started and Red didn't bother to tell you that this was happening. Imagine owning one of the newest 8/10bit 1080p cameras right now. Imagine owning an Alexa or F65 right now. Hell, imagine owning an Alexa when they demo their new camera in a few months.

Jim is 100% right. If you are buying cameras at this general price point you need to get out there and get to work. If it's something fun to buy and you're going to have it sitting around most days of the week/month I don't know what you would be expecting in terms of being able to pay off your investment. Cameras need to roll to make money.

Patience and the ability to imagine yourself in Red's shoes here is a good idea. Times are changing. If they sat back and didn't react to what's going on around them they wouldn't be here tomorrow. Red has some talented folks and creative brains in their ranks. They have a plan to move forward against the coming siege of new 4K bodies. We know about price and Dragon. Let's see what they can do from here.

 

[Paul Harb]

"Jim is cool like that... RED has never been about money"

:shocked:

 

[RayFrisby]

I really think it's time to draw a line under this whole argument, it's going around in a circle.

THE FACTS ARE SIMPLE THE DAMN HAS BROKEN.
THINGS HAVE CHANGED AGAIN AND FASTER THAT EXPECTED. IT'S TIME TO ACCEPT THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION AND MOVE ON.

The price of the Epic is going to fall, probably Scarlet too. I do agree with Hrvoje the price reduction should be coupled with an announcement that it will
include the new Dragon sensor and existing customers can upgrade for a price.
If Red announced that the price would come into play straight away and the upgrade program would
begin on the same day the F5 - F55 shipped now that would be an advantage !

The only thing Sony is waiting for now is for RED to blink. This war of attrition has begun.
Sony has deliberately held off announcing a price for their cameras
until Red does. (They have learnt from the C300 announcement)
IMO any suggestion that Sony are concerned about their customers ROI
is misplaced and not the way a company like Sony or any other business operates. If they thought this way they would
not have leaked a price point for their cameras, and would still be charging the same inflated prices as before.
Be under no illusion they have been brought to this point through competition and everything they do is about
maintaining their market share. Its just the way business operates.

One advantage Red has is it has a 5K camera in production, it's real and they are probably close to finishing the Pro Res -DNxHD, Mini Audio and Meisser Module.
Add a Cineform option to the module, give users options and let them decide. Producers and Post Houses will love you.

IMO RED should focus on workflow as aggressively as price reduction. Everything else can wait.
Red needs to announce that it will have these available before the new year.
Accessories and media prices also needs to be tackled, re-negotiate prices, arrange strategic alliances with companies like Tilta, but drive down the
costs one way or another.

My 2 Cents