Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Milan Spasic]

Well, I bet Rob has the highest score in this thread before you started And about Tom, we can disagree when happens. But after many years of reduser, Tom has become a friendly mate on these pages. On the other hand, I dislike to see character assassination anywhere. Moreover, Tom deserves to be defended by his peers. I do nothing but only my obligation. I am not used to run when I see people to be attacked. Especially people that I know and who I have a history with.

Tom assassinated his own character many times on these pages by being disrespectful and unprofessional to people simply voicing their opinions to Red. I only stated that I dont care for his insults, that is not even remotely insulting or "character assasination", you are reaching. So feel free to stand by Tom but don't get upset if you are thrown in the same category as him.

Lastly, judging by your "about me" link, it seems that the nature of your business is completely different than mine, it's understandable that you are not affected and don't understand why and how others are.

For those arguing that everything in electronics change, including price, that is certainly true but the hyper devaluation of everything Red is surpassing any other camera or computer. Most Red products are worth 1/4 of its price as soon as they leave the box they arrived in. This includes even lenses. I don't dry rent my gear and my day rate is the same as its always been but with an only 7 months old Epic that will devaluate over night along with all the other gear that's barely left its Red boxes and that you can buy for peanuts these days, there is no doubt that the rates, resale as well as the demand will suffer. New buyers rejoice, old buyers suffer.
All I'm saying is that Red products seem to go obsolete faster then any other piece of tech I own. It's great that the products are improving but if you are an owner/operator...... good luck with that. It's a bottomless money pit.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

It's funny to see how some people try to find arguments against lowering prices. Complaints about price-reduction, wow, am i in a parallel universe or something and didn't notice the wormhole i fell through?

Those of us who are concerned - we are not against anything yet as we don't know what the reduction will be - we are only against drastic reductions out of the blue as I think we all understand prices will go down a little bit over time. A drastic reduction would lower the resale and renting value of what we bought as a business investment. Generally in recent years, it si a rule of thumb that if you buy cameras only if you can amortize them over 1.5 years, otherwise you should rent. We who bought our cams in Stage 4 assuming we had at least a year before a large cut in $$ value

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Tom assassinated his own character many times on these pages by being disrespectful and unprofessional to people simply voicing their opinions to Red. I only stated that I dont care for his insults, that is not even remotely insulting or "character assasination", you are reaching. So feel free to stand by Tom but don't get upset if you are thrown in the same category as him.

Lastly, judging by your "about me" link, it seems that the nature of your business is completely different than mine, it's understandable that you are not affected and don't understand why and how others are.

For those arguing that everything in electronics change, including price, that is certainly true but the hyper devaluation of everything Red is surpassing any other camera or computer. Most Red products are worth 1/4 of its price as soon as they leave the box they arrived in. This includes even lenses. I don't dry rent my gear and my day rate is the same as its always been but with an only 7 months old Epic that will devaluate over night along with all the other gear that's barely left its Red boxes and that you can buy for peanuts these days, there is no doubt that the rates, resale as well as the demand will suffer. New buyers rejoice, old buyers suffer.
All I'm saying is that Red products seem to go obsolete faster then any other piece of tech I own. It's great that the products are improving but if you are an owner/operator...... good luck with that. It's a bottomless money pit.

That's a bit harsh Milan. Red One held its value very well, and the trade-in was 100% of value against an Epic. Epic until - we'll see on the 31st - held its value very, very well.

A few items like the quad module did not hold value well at all, but the cams themselves - and maybe we will all sigh with deep relief on the 31st - they have been fine so far, It has been possible to amortize them, even make a profit - and we mostly rent to ourselves for our our production clients. Let's hope things stay that way.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

This is a shockingly long thread. This is not an issue with shades of grey. It is black and white simple math.

A product should cost parts + labor + chunk of NRE + fair profit margin.

More is unethical. Any argument otherwise related to prestige, exclusivity, rental rates, past investments are unethical.

Price gouging is just price gouging. Don't try to put a pretty face on it.

I think you misunderstand how a technology or idea based business model works.

There are huge upfront costs of research and development - the per-unit cost doesn't really matter.

It's like a novel. It takes maybe years to write one, so it's fair that you pay $10 for a copy, even if that individual book only cost $1 to print, or $0 if it's an electronic download.

Your business model is that of commodities like potatoes.

Besides, it's only unethical if they lie about the specs. Otherwise people can pay whatever they agree for goods and services that deliver what they promise. How much money is unethical? You seem to think that being successful, beyond a point, is unethical. Google "poverty mentality". Poverty mentality keeps many good people down, struggling all their lives. Get rid of it.

Some people here really need to learn the basics of business if they want to be successful financially. I say this with kindness, not malice.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I verbally gave the go ahead on a camera a few days ago, but I won't be seeing paperwork til after the price change. How this is handled will shape my opinion, but Red have yet to disappoint me in any regard.

We all have our opinions. Personally I'll reserve judgement til I know what the change is and how it affects me. A lot of guys complaining ahead of the facts might be better doing likewise.

I was voicing concern over what MIGHT happen. No concluding anything until I see what happens on the 31st - just really want to be super-clear about that. Maybe all this will be a lot to do about nothing. I do hope so.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

...one other thing

Red has a philosophy about making a camera that you can upgrade, that will not die out as technology is improved. The difference here is that when other companies lower their prices on cameras or equipment they do that when they release a new camera, a totally new hardware solution. Red is lowering the price as any other, it's just that they don't release a new camera all the time and lower the price on their last "version". Their version IS the current version, whatever camera they have.

So, becuase Red isn't following the usual traditional "throw out the previous camera and buy a new one" -way that every other company does their price changes might seem out of the blue, but they need to lower their prices as any other company and to be fair, these guys give us so much quality for so little money that I am still stunned every time I hear of some idiot who invest their life-savings in an Alexa or a Canon.

Remember, you are in here because Red is special, don't try to make Red into some regular commercial camera company with a regular (and outdated) business modell.

...and also, did you buy your camera to make movies, commercials, short films or other stuff or did you buy it to sell it? Just wondering, because people put more value into how much they invest and very little into what capabilites they have in their hand. I would love to have an Epic, I don't have the money for it, I can only dream of owning one at this time and when I hear people complaining while having this superior camera technology in their hand I just feel that you don't deserve it...

I could have rented my Epic for the days I've used it since receipt - and had that "same capability in my hands" I just hope I am not going to see a huge loss over what that would have cost vs the price difference.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

My take: why don't we all relax, see what happens in 2 days and then we can all continue discussing based on actual facts... You know, price drop can mean $5, $5000, $29.99 or whatever - just might have a little impact on the discussion...

Because in two days, after they have made their final decision, it will be too late. Then expressing discontent will indeed be just whining/griping. The time to have our voices heard, to respectfully express our concerns, is now.

 

[Les C.]

Great news on the price reductions!

RED produces computers that process video, and computer prices fall rapidly in a free market.

This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

These price reductions will help insure that RED is competitive and will maintain the value of our investment in the RED paradigm.

 

[oleg kaizerman]

to be on the safe side you need 4.2% a month for 24 months you keep the camera ( 50% worth after 2 years in rush sale and includes 25%( 50% for 2 years ) a year for maintance , interst , shit happence , insurence , sub rent and what ever) these who dont make that 4 % probably loose money
in simple words - for 60000 epic you need 90000 return for 24 months to be on the safe side - thats 3750 a month ' if you been lucky and nothing bad happend to you ,you even make 500-600 $ profit - very simple , works for me.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Great news on the price reductions!

RED produces computers that process video, and computer prices fall rapidly in a free market.

This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

These price reductions will help insure that RED is competitive and will maintain the value of our investment in the RED paradigm.

Pro and even prosumer cameras do not follow the same pricing reduction model as consumer electronics. That is simply not true. Red, Arri, even Sony have never done that, otherwise only a fool would ever buy a camera at that price as it would be a terrible investment. There would only be rentals happening. Look at what EX1s are selling for now - 35%-40% off retail used, 5 years after release.

 

[Paul Lee]

Jim: " We now live in the world of exponential."

That's what I keep trying to tell everyone! Well said.

 

[Robino_J]

Your business model is that of commodities like potatoes.

Anybody making a business model over a single digital camera is also a "commodity like a potatoe." Maybe invest in some high quality glass, that for sure will not devalue over time. The tech world is changing too fast specially in the camera department. From 2009 to 2012 it's been a hell of a ride and it's only getting started. EVERYTHING will get cheaper and there is no way around it.

On a side note I saw Sony's 4K TV yesterday at the Sony store in L.A. and it was absolutely stunning. It's also $25,000 but not for "too long...

Thanks Red for your amazing cameras and I can't wait to learn the new pricing.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

why didnt you buy an alexa if its only for the investment?
there will be a new 4k alexa pressnted somewhere around nab.
it will be expensive as hell, it will rent out on commercials as hell.
but there is no upgrade path. everybody who bought an alexa plus will have to
buy a whole new cam. thats the other side of the coin.
i try to understand you, dont get me wrong. but -i didnt make my money back yet- is
not an argument to not lower the prices
and i dont really understand what busisness investment you actually made.
rental busisness? shoot my own stuff business? if rental, the brain makes the smallest part in a bundle.
if my own stuff, well your stuff will look good next week too.
just trying to understand here.

 

[oleg kaizerman]

150000 f-35 went on ebay for 7800 us$ 2 days ago after 3 yeas

 

[Milan Spasic]

Pro and even prosumer cameras do not follow the same pricing reduction model as consumer electronics. That is simply not true. Red, Arri, even Sony have never done that, otherwise only a fool would ever buy a camera at that price as it would be a terrible investment. There would only be rentals happening. Look at what EX1s are selling for now - 35%-40% off retail used, 5 years after release.

Exactly.

Additionaly, comparing computer devaluation to camera devaluation in this business doesn't really work as they are completely different beasts. Producers do care what camera a project is shot on and they generally don't care if the computer the project is edited on has the latest spec.
My year old Red One M was collecting dust for months when the MX came out, despite of being a perfectly capable camera. Nobody wanted it.
At the same time my 4 year old MacPro with the RR was ticking along happily.
That's how this business works unfortunately.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

Says a lot about RED as a company, able to produce quality products while lowering their costs, bringing that savings to the customer as well. Shows a very adaptable business which should make the U.S. proud. I remember when GM failed, one of the core reasons is that it could not lower costs and adapt to new markets. Lack of creativity in their product and high fixed costs led to GM's bk. I am happy to see RED, as a U.S. company in an ever-evolving and highly competitive industry, set an example to what a great business model should be like.

Very exciting times for the digital camera world !

 

[Les C.]

Pro and even prosumer cameras do not follow the same pricing reduction model as consumer electronics. That is simply not true. Red, Arri, even Sony have never done that, otherwise only a fool would ever buy a camera at that price as it would be a terrible investment. There would only be rentals happening. Look at what EX1s are selling for now - 35%-40% off retail used, 5 years after release.

Rob - we've had this conversation before. If I recall, you were the gentleman who threatened me with a bit of violence if I rented a camera below a certain price.

The price reductions are going to happen, for RED and for other non-consumer companies.

Things could be worse. You could have bought a non-upgradable Canon C300.

If your business model can't sustain a price reduction, you need to re-think your business model.

As the RED powers-that-be stated it's running 20-1 in favor of the reductions, I suggest you just accept reality and move on.

 

[Les Dittert]

A hunch : Red might be announcing a new camera that day, and the old cameras get new pricing as a result. Remember that Jim said they would not be leaking info on new products any more.
The Japanese say : "Business is war" . Red has ammo.

 

[John C Picking Jr]

I haven't posted since around November 3, 2011. The Scarlet turned out to not be what I wanted to do at the time. I had a Canon XL2 and wanted to get into "real" videography as a hobby and website work. I like nice stuff but don't have unlimited funds.

I couldn't afford Scarlet so I spent the last year mostly enjoying Nikon still photography, which I have since FM & F3. I bought some more lenses, waiting.

I was not prepared for the BT Scarlets last week. Wow, that was great, though. Just wasn't cash ready.

Scarlet and I seem to be able to converge in the Spring of 2013. I love Nikon glass, mount exists that didn't last Nov. Prices may be lower. Life is always good.

The point is that RED doesn't owe anyone their particular wish. You work with what is reality at the time. RED draws discontent because of their transparency. Just be glad the Epic is still the Epic and you don't have a worse camera but have the same one with the same upgrade path.

I have the last 17" MacBook Pro. Wish I could upgrade it in another generation but it will always be a 2011 MBP. Apple doesn't owe me a new 17" MBP.

Use what you have, be creative, have fun with it.

Don't be an Eduardo Saverin.

 

[Milan Spasic]

i try to understand you, dont get me wrong. but -i didnt make my money back yet- is
not an argument to not lower the prices

How do you figure that? That's the whole idea about having a business model. If you are a camera hobbyist who has a day job, more power to you. The camera investment I made is not a sole source of my income. A camera is just a part of the package I'm selling, the other part is my skill. That doesn't mean that the camera part is not affecting my business.