Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[James Houk]

These are certainly interesting times.

I'm curious to see the next year play out.

Nick Morrison makes some good points in RED's favor, but Sony's put some good cards on the table here. Global shutter, high frame rates without sensor cropping, easy 1080 and 2k files... these are features that will not be ignored by producers, rental houses, and those considering their next camera purchase - particularly those not already invested in RED equipment.

Certainly, projects that are currently being shot for television on the Alexa may give the Sony F55 a very serious look.

 

[James T Mather]

+1 @James Houk.

True, it does offer some interesting options to some markets.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Truth is, this is WAR. Sony is dropping ICBM's, and now RED is retaliating. As THEY SHOULD. This is is a TAKE NO PRISONERS battle for supremacy in a market that RED CREATED.

No one took 4K seriously until RED made it a de-facto standard. And now...a sleeping, wounded giant (have you SEEN Sony's stock price?), has decided they WANT IN.

Well, unfortunately, they are taking on a SMALLER, MORE NIMBLE company (RED) that is run by a mad genius that clearly couldn't give a sh*t about making profits. Which gives him the strength to be a DAVID in a world of GOLIATHS.

What's happening right now goes WAY BEYOND $$$.

For Sony, it's a chance to prove they are still relevant.

For RED, it's a chance to slay another Goliath that wants them dead. And an opportunity to remind the industry that you can't beat them with a sticker price. They only way to win this war is to CREATE THE BEST CAMERA.

And, well, we ALL KNOW what that camera's called. It breathes fire, spits lead, and roars like a DRAGON.


Haha. What Sony doesn't realize is that this WAR they've begun is already OVER.

If this is what RED wants to do, they need to kill the SCARLET, and make the EPIC a sub-10K SHOOTING solution (i.e. brain + canon mount + side SSD + one media card). I'm all for this. If RED's business goals and ledger allows for this, GO FOR IT, RED!

But keep the full solution pricing in mind, not just the brain. That's my only take on this.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If they "kill the Scarlet," does that mean mine immediately stops working and becomes worthless like some around here posit? :laugh:

 

[Mike P.]

If they "kill the Scarlet," does that mean mine immediately stops working and becomes worthless like some around here posit? :laugh:

Depends; if at NAB2013 every company is offering 8k cameras for $5000, I highly doubt anyone will rent/use a Scarlet when better and cheaper is available. So while you may have no problems using it for your own stuff, everyone else will have moved on to better. Realistically though, it should be relevant until at least 2014.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

If they "kill the Scarlet," does that mean mine immediately stops working and becomes worthless like some around here posit? :laugh:

To build a rental business around? Yes, most likely. But RED never had the model of renting at their core a la Panavision. RED was always an empowerment movement and the price point enabled ownership. That's why I bought in. That's why I'll stay bought in.

RED now needs to make the post struggle a non-issue for those of us who can't splurge on a red rocket or want to have the latest technology incorporated into the red rocket solution. For me, as a stage 4 EPIC-X owner, that's my wish for what I want RED to focus on and enable/empower us.

I want Nov 1 to come and go, and for RED to focus on helping those of us who want to never have to defend the EPIC against the ALEXA. We want RED to do the talking for us.

edit: all of this is MY OPINION, not fact. should be understood, but want to make sure I state it clearly.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

To build a rental business around? Yes, most likely. But RED never had the model of renting at their core a la Panavision.

They've got a ways to go. It's certainly affordable for owner/operators. But a kit will probably run you $20k-$30k. That's still a large investment to exclusively use yourself. With an Epic kit running you easily $100k with RED Primes... you can get a lot of rental days out of someone else's gear for $100k.

 

[Milan Spasic]

I gotta say... never have I seen anyone so committed to a position of Armageddon than some folks in this thread. What I can't understand is, if a price drop (of a high tech piece of gear, no less) spells so much gloom and doom for certain business activities, why would anyone ever have taken such a risk in the first place. Shit ALWAYS happens. :huh:

It makes sense that you have hard time understanding how others feel because you are not in the same situation, probably not even in the same business. You own a Scarlet, yes? I also presume you have a day job or another source of income? Well then....

To answer your question, we've been sold cameras under a motto "obsolescence obsolete" which was generously demonstrated through the R1 trade-in program. But what I have now is the quickest devaluating piece of tech I've ever owned. This does not only apply to Epic body but almost every piece of Red gear. Stuff we've payed premium prices and waited for months on to arrive, only a couple of years ago, is literally worthless. You can't give it away for the 10th of its price.

So why is Red superseding every other manufacturer in this respect? The price drop doesn't help anybody but the potential new buyers. Even for them I would advise to proceede with caution.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

They've got a ways to go. It's certainly affordable for owner/operators. But a kit will probably run you $20k-$30k. That's still a large investment to exclusively use yourself. With an Epic kit running you easily $100k with RED Primes... you can get a lot of rental days out of someone else's gear for $100k.

Exactly. Which is why a reduction in just the brain price (to my mind) would be a sisyphean move from the point of view of those who are invested in the entire RED ecosystem.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

This thread.... pretty much summed up right here with Redusers shooting and the thing on the Train being the "Price cut" ...even the dialogue works!

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

This thread.... pretty much summed up right here with Redusers shooting and the thing on the Train being the "Price cut" ...even the dialogue works!

LOL. I see it more as a "What would happen if you won the lottery?" kind of a thing. RED has. They have recoupled. Costs have dropped. They have won the lottery. Now, will they give all the money to Mom because she deserves it, or will they spend it on making new friends?

Some of the comments in this are hilarious. http://http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/what-would-you-do-if-you-won-the-lottery/

 

[Terry VerHaar]

It makes sense that you have hard time understanding how others feel because you are not in the same situation, probably not even in the same business. You own a Scarlet, yes? I also presume you have a day job or another source of income? Well then....To answer your question, we've been sold cameras under a motto "obsolescence obsolete" which was generously demonstrated through the R1 trade-in program. But what I have now is the quickest devaluating piece of tech I've ever owned. This does not only apply to Epic body but almost every piece of Red gear. Stuff we've payed premium prices and waited for months on to arrive, only a couple of years ago, is literally worthless. You can't give it away for the 10th of its price. So why is Red superseding every other manufacturer in this respect? The price drop doesn't help anybody but the potential new buyers. Even for them I would advise to proceede with caution.

You know the old saying about ASS/U/ME.

As for talking about how others "feel" - I didn't think that was the issue in this discussion. Of course people "feel" disappointed or angry or upset or cheated or fearful. But the real issue is the rational thought behind running a business and acting and thinking rationally. I am not contesting anyone's "feelings." My comments have been pointed at those who can't seem to get used to the idea that an "investment" in technology with an expectation of stable prices and/or value, is a fool's bet from the beginning. Would it make you "feel" better if I "felt" sorry for all of us who paid full price for our equipment? (Doesn't change the rationale of the actions people have taken.) :smiley:

I don't think you mean "literally" worthless. If that's the case, send it along to me - I'll pay shipping. LOL

 

[Peer Landa]

Stuff we've payed premium prices and waited for months on to arrive, only a couple of years ago, is literally worthless.

So from tomorrow on your Epic camera is "literally worthless"...?! Oh brother, what a bizarro world you are living in.

-- peer

 

[John semikian]

is literally worthless.

lmao.. You expect anyone to take this seriously? Really? If u mean this I urge you to give yourself a little more credit then that. I'm sure you can find a way to make one of the best cameras on the market worth something.

 

[Mark Toia]

I don't care if they come down 1,000 bucks or 10,000 bucks... I'm just happy that they do what I want them to do... and exist for me to profit from.

Sony's cameras don't do what I need... (yet) ... even with there new breed.
Arris cameras don't do what I need... (yet) .... and the way they are talking they may never tick all my boxes.
Canon don't do what I need... (yet) ... But I think they are RED's biggest competitor. The moment they can do high speed RAW and Canon pricing... Then that will swing my thinking.

And to upgrade any of the above means I have to buy another camera....
To upgrade RED will cost me 6K... ?

In saying all that... One day one of these companies will bring out a EPIC killer... and RED may be behind the 8 ball. Its happend to before, it will happen again.

Canon did it to nikon and vise versa.... And RED acknowledge that there is stiff competition coming in fast and they could loose customers if they fall behind.
But till that happens RED is for me for now....

Did I mention I have gone from Nikon to Canon back to nikon and then to canon again...
Ive also gone from Sony to Canon to Arri to RED...

This cycle of chasing a technical edge and price advantage is real for us all...

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

I love the sudden attitude drop when prices are lowered. The same guys saying their stuff is worthless now only a few weeks ago were touting around as the best of the best.

Sure, if the Epic is a 'worthless' asset to you now, you can always jump ship and pay 3-4x more for inferior tech with the bigger names. The people who actually appreciate the product and the price drop based on an HONEST assessment of how their manufacturing prices have decreased will benefit the most. No other company on EARTH will ever drop the prices like RED will. Too much greed in this world... for RED to stay clear of that says alot.

I'll always be a RED owner because of this mentality and find it almost hostile that anyone who paid to partake in RED's domination of 4k in the last few years has suddenly looked at their own purchases as a worthless investment.

 

[Nick Gardner]

I don't think he is talking about the epic. Case in point, I gave away red drives because absolutely no one would pay any money for them. I have been unable to sell my 5" red one monitor. I have red one top mounts from ET that are only worth anything to me because I have a machine shop and can mill off the useless bits and use them for something else (I have yet to discover a use for them). I get the feeling that a lot of the people who are so reluctant to admit that this has any actual impact haven't been in the business very long.

I think it will hurt the perception of Red to cut the price. It's already the "cheap" camera, it's already the "hobbyist/indie" camera. That is how it is perceived by a lot of producers and crews. I personally disagree. I think it's the most powerful tool ever put into the hands of filmmakers. Unfortunately, when you get 700 dingbats running around with completely half assed scarlet, or even epic packages, that is the perception that is promoted. I really genuinely challenge you to go find a complete mickey mouse Alexa production where they are running around with enough batteries to shoot for 2 hours, a manfroto head, and a 1200 dollar still lens that they think they can shoot their whole project on.

I do not plan on lowering my rental rates. My clients will not expect me too. I wasn't planning on selling my cameras anyway. This in no way negatively affects me. I do think it will harm the perception of Red as a brand if they come out slashing prices. But, then again, I don't expect to be seeing $20k epics ;-) I guess we will find out tomorrow.

Nick

 

[Timur Civan]

Well....

As a guy who is mid way through a used epic lease to own, this can potentially hurt me pretty badly. If the price drops to where a new camera is worth less than what I owe, I will be in trouble. The only reason I'm able to make payments is that rental rates are high.

Then again, there are epic owners right now giving up their cameras for peanuts. I'm getting great rates. I suppose it has to do with my rolodex of clients, rather than the price of the camera. It's disconcerting but not catastrophic. Ultimately people are paying me to shoot, not provide a camera at a low price. In fact, they seem to pay what ever price I set. Thankfully. I followed Jim's advice. I worked my camera hard.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I'm going to stick up for the younger generation who will supposedly tarnish the RED name. The craft of filmmaking which was once accessible to those that went to school, has suddenly become an affordable hobby available to anyone with some ambition and a dream. For many years I used to train students young and old, on how to use 3D animation software. Hands down, the young kids that have never had any exposure to anything like it, were the ones that blew me away. We need to stop thinking about this elitist attitude and elevating status towards technology purely on cost. Technology is changing so rapidly that your business model shouldn't rely on paying off the gear in a year or two. It has to be within a few jobs or it's not worth to buy. So I'm sorry for those that have invested a lot, but the writing was on the wall. Everything you think you know about this business is about to turn upside down. We are the old dogs about to get our asses kicked. Adapt or die. Red set out to make affordable gear for the indie filmmakers and they will continue to do so. This price cut is only the beginning. Things will continue to get cheaper. You can bet on that. Buying expensive gear does not get you ahead. Buying the most expensive shovel doesn't guarantee a better hole. Sorry for the rant. The sooner we get on with the new regime, the better.

 

[Bryce O]

I understand where the rental guys are coming from... but it's been pretty clear for a while that the industry is going towards an ownership market. Most up and coming DP's and directors own their own stuff now. It just makes sense these days. This is the future. We've had computers for like 20 years now... why are people still surprised when things like these happen?

I mean, come on... do you you really think it's right to have manufacturers sell gear at artificially high-prices so that owners can sell services at extorted prices? This is called "collude and demand". This is Cronyism. Is this what everyone is pissed off about going on in the world today? Oh yea, I forgot... it's totally fine when it's "you're" industry, and "you're job". :rolleyes5:

Technology is changing so rapidly that your business model shouldn't rely on paying off the gear in a year or two. It has to be within a few jobs or it's not worth to buy. So I'm sorry for those that have invested a lot, but the writing was on the wall. Everything you think you know about this business is about to turn upside down.

+1 exactly. Everyone applauded Red when they gave people an options to get away from the camera rental monopoly that only a few had access to. Now they're continuing with this tradition, trying to be more competitive, and open up even more opportunity, and they get bashed? How hypocritical.