Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Emanuel A.]

I'm not sure. Reduser is skewed. It does not represent all owners. I told a friend in NYC about this and he had no idea. He got his Epic about 4 months ago. To say that he was happy, excited positive would be a gross misrepresentation of his reaction. He was much more openly angry and dismayed than I am, in a much less nuanced way He does not post on Red user, just checks for firmware updates through e-mails. He said "If the price is too low I am never buying anything Red again." He was even pissed at ME, because I helped talk him into his purchase.

Anyway, the fact that many people think something has never influenced what I think one way or another. I listen to their arguments and agree or not. I am not afraid to voice this. Most people are shy about voicing negative feelings toward authority figures, even if they may agree with me, so you don't hear from them on this thread.

I know that Jim and Jarred are not the types to screw up my warranty claims or make me wait for my Dragon upgrade because I am being respectfully honest here. Others may not realize that Jim and Jarred are the mature and respectful people that they are.

The fact is that you're practically alone here trying to hold your baby far beyond what should be tolerated for a very very personal agenda, in my humble opinion.

Why don't you dare to open a poll to listen this community? Even if it is in the same location you're now bashing. Or you're implicitly saying reduser doesn't represent the RED users (because what they say doesn't fit your own interest) ?

So, what are you doing here in almost every pages of this thread you can (against the opinion of a gross majority of customers as same as you -- with a big difference in any case) ?

BTW, where was your money on April 26th 2006? And October 5th, same year? Because I know in which hands USD 4,000.00 were deposited...

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Cameras are now purely technology. I learnt back when I bought my first computer how quickly technology gets better and cheaper. If RED artificially kept the price of Epic/Scarlet high, in a couple months we would all be complaining about how they priced us out of the market by letting that other company release that new 12k camera for half the price that all the producers now want. If I don't think I can pay off and make money with a camera/computer within a year I won't even consider it.

RED could protect us from the march of technology for a few months but it would then be washed away, not even showing up as a blip on the timeline. Jim and Jarred understand this, that is why they are hard at work on lightfield and depth imaging cameras. Stay ahead or get washed away.

I own 3 Epics and I couldn't be happier that RED is reducing the price, makes it a lot easier if I need to pickup more.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So honestly guys .. I can’t imagine a price cut that would be significantly beyond 25%?

Cheers,
Eric

I can very easily imagine it. Scarlet is essentially the same camera as an Epic. It was just made from Epic chips that weren't up to spec. If they have gotten yield rates up to nearly 100% then Scarlet is proof that labor and assembly is only about $10k w/ profit. And the $6k Dragon upgrade proves that you can get new ASIC chips and Sensor for about $6-$8k. That means an epic could easily be $17k now that they have no R&D costs to pay off. It's also been 18 months since Epic-M started shipping. So we're looking at one iteration of Moore's law which says 50% per 18 months. And RED is churning out accessories at breakneck speed. The more Epic owners the more AKS they sell.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Epic owners even at 50% off. 50% off every 18 months for the same performance is what you expect. The problem imo is Scarlet which was already 1/10th the 5k framerates but might, all told, be almost the same price as an Epic after Dragon. 20% more for 10x the features in 10 months is kind of sucky if RED doesn't offer some sort of deal to bring them into the Epic family.

 

[Brian Boyer]

There are many repercussions from this. How long do you think it will take the Alexa camp to say "Yeah, they lowered the price because it's not worth more than that and no one was buying it."

Perception is a political and complex thing. This is a perception business. Probably less so for a guy working alone in the forest and selling his work by himself on the internet (no offense Tom, I saw your film and thought it was amazing). But for most of us, yes.

If that were going to happen, it would've happened when the RED ONE first came out.

Instead, what happened was everyone asked, "If RED can make a 4K RAW camera for $17,500, why does Sony charge so much for baked in 1080p?"

And the "8K" F65 came in at less than half, if I'm not mistaken, of what the F35 originally cost.

As someone pointed out earlier, the Alexa would've been at least twice as much money if it weren't for RED's price/performance ratio. And I'm quite sure you didn't feel the Epic wasn't worth it when you bought yours. Maybe know-nothing, YouTube trolling tweens may think so, but most rational adults know better.

If Dragon is the monster that RED claims it is, you'll see everyone else follow suit on lower pricing. If RED is making some of the best cameras on the planet, turning a healthy profit and simultaneously reducing costs to the consumer, that's not a race to the bottom. That's fulfilling the Dream, baby. It also makes RED's competitors look worse, not prestigious.

I find it interesting that you can't be talked down from being upset over a price you haven't even heard yet. You're already talking about canceling vacations for the family.

There's expressing legitimate concerns and then there's needless hand wringing. I think you've made your point. Now, try to relax.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Cameras are now purely technology. I learnt back when I bought my first computer how quickly technology gets better and cheaper.

I though Red's agenda was to change this. Super robust upgradable cameras.

 

[Nick Gardner]

If that were going to happen, it would've happened when the RED ONE first came out.

It did. And it still does. Being perceived as the "cheap" alternative doesn't doesn't sit well with people spending a shit ton of money and expecting things to work.

The reality, in my opinion, is that the Epic is the best camera out there for just about any purpose. You certainly can't beat it for size and resolution. But that doesn't change the perception of people that it's a cheap camera. Case in point, Alexas rent their asses off and they are more expensive, yet in many many ways, inferior.

I understand peoples concerns, but I think they are a little overblown. As long as top level people are using the cameras, which I don't see changing, it's all good.

Nick

 

[Eric Lange]

I can very easily imagine it. Scarlet is essentially the same camera as an Epic. It was just made from Epic chips that weren't up to spec. If they have gotten yield rates up to nearly 100% then Scarlet is proof that labor and assembly is only about $10k w/ profit. And the $6k Dragon upgrade proves that you can get new ASIC chips and Sensor for about $6-$8k. That means an epic could easily be $17k now that they have no R&D costs to pay off. It's also been 18 months since Epic-M started shipping. So we're looking at one iteration of Moore's law which says 50% per 18 months. And RED is churning out accessories at breakneck speed. The more Epic owners the more AKS they sell.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Epic owners even at 50% off. 50% off every 18 months for the same performance is what you expect. The problem imo is Scarlet which was already 1/10th the 5k framerates but might, all told, be almost the same price as an Epic after Dragon. 20% more for 10x the features in 10 months is kind of sucky if RED doesn't offer some sort of deal to bring them into the Epic family.

Well, by your reasoning that’s why I would say they would stick to a 25% cut so everything else still stays “sweet”. They are not at liberty to sell equipment close or at cost… that does not help anyone. I interpret it more as they may be buying themselves a bit of insurance to make sure that Epic continues on a path to becoming a major plank of the digital cinema industry. I.e. the Cameras continue to make more sense budget wise than ever before for rental houses (and special projects).. in more “dynamic” ends of the industry.

E

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

If this allows me as a Scarlet owner to POTENTIALLY jump into the Epic family, I'm all for it. I'd certainly hope that RED doesn't see the Scarlet as a dead end product, nor have they given indications that they feel that way about it.

Either way, cool news. Excited to hear what it entails on the 1st.

 

[Jarred Land]

If that were going to happen, it would've happened when the RED ONE first came out.

Instead, what happened was everyone asked, "If RED can make a 4K RAW camera for $17,500, why does Sony charge so much for baked in 1080p?"

And the "8K" F65 came in at less than half, if I'm not mistaken, of what the F35 originally cost.

As someone pointed out earlier, the Alexa would've been at least twice as much money if it weren't for RED's price/performance ratio. And I'm quite sure you didn't feel the Epic wasn't worth it when you bought yours. Maybe know-nothing, YouTube trolling tweens may think so, but most rational adults know better.

If Dragon is the monster that RED claims it is, you'll see everyone else follow suit on lower pricing. If RED is making some of the best cameras on the planet, turning a healthy profit and simultaneously reducing costs to the consumer, that's not a race to the bottom. That's fulfilling the Dream, baby. It also makes RED's competitors look worse, not prestigious.

I find it interesting that you can't be talked down from being upset over a price you haven't even heard yet. You're already talking about canceling vacations for the family.

There's expressing legitimate concerns and then there's needless hand wringing. I think you've made your point. Now, try to relax.

Good summation Brian.

This is happening everywhere.... The camera industry is a little skewed from reality because for most of it's history it has gouged its customers.

And as you said... the post world has gone through this recently. Even the cheaper tools like FCP have gone from $1300 per single license to $299 for "family" Licence. Same thing with Davinci... AVID.. the list goes on. Even the heavy hitters like Smoke just went from $15,000 to $3000. We already talked about the still camera industry that has had the same. DSLR's are a fraction of what they used to cost with performance that beats what they used to shoot. Everyone here has probably, like it or not, lost a job to a young punk with a DSLR. Even the very high end Medium Format cameras have dropped dramatically. Lighting companies are starting to do the same. As Zak mentioned.. if you really must have stability in your life.. your only stable bet is probably investing in C-Stands and Sandbags.

We are not turning into a consumer company. We are not lowering the capability or quality of our products. We are simply shifting prices to what they should be.

Look outside our industry and look around... its happening everywhere... everywhere. You can either get on the bus and adapt.. or put your head in the sand and pray that nobody notices.

 

[paul schefz]

wow! trying to read all this.....looks like the price cuts have been announced!...but wait....they haven't....
did anyone really think they could buy a camera (or any piece of technology) a year ago for 50k and dream that they could rent it out for 1K/day for the next 5 years? really?
i actually prefer to get hired for my vision/eye/person/mind/body/teeth/....not for the "cool" camera i happen to have....

i don't understand that elitist point of view...lowering the price will let the villagers in!
the more people can buy any RED camera, the lower the price, the better the next RED, at an even better price! why would i not like that? oh...and canon, sony, panasonic, alexa....they all have to come down as well! why would i not like that?
if every person on the planet had a RED, i still like to think i would get hired....

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I though Red's agenda was to change this. Super robust upgradable cameras.

They have! I paid $5k to upgrade from M to MX, $10k to upgrade to Epic, and now $6k to upgrade to the $6k Dragon sensor. My point was that it is inevitable technology will quickly get better/cheaper...RED chooses to treat their early adopters extremely well. I haven't seen anyone who only paid $10k for the Stage 3 Epic upgrade complaining about the price reduction.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

You can either get on the bus and adapt.. or put your head in the sand and pray that nobody notices.

As a Scarlet customer I just want an affordable bus ticket.

And with all of the Epic talk, I'm not sure whether to feel really excited or worried about being the forgotten underclass. As Justin just said, the RED One customers were treated like royalty, so I'm inclined to lean towards really excited about what might be in this announcement.

 

[paul schefz]

DSLR's are a fraction of what they used to cost with performance that beats what they used to shoot. Everyone here has probably, like it or not, lost a job to a young punk with a DSLR.

so true...the 5D and even more so the 5DII killed medium format off....it was also the first camera that was acceptable to have on set and the AD would come over and say: "oh, my wife has that one too!"...it completely leveled the playing field....some shooters would still have a hasselblad sitting on a tripod to keep up appearances...but in the end....nobody cares....i remember seeing some profoto bts video with annie leibowitz and she shoots the entire shoot with a 5D no grip (how unprofessional!) and a zoom....

i really don't think the photos got worse and i don't think that development really cost anyone any jobs....
and leica is selling more cameras and lenses then ever....maybe to dentists but again, who cares.....

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

As a Scarlet customer I just want an affordable bus ticket.

And with all of the Epic talk, I'm not sure whether to feel really excited or worried about being the forgotten underclass. As Justin just said, the RED One customers were treated like royalty, so I'm inclined to lean towards really excited about what might be in this announcement.

Color me excited. Again I'll ride that bus if I can avoid selling a slightly abused liver.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Maybe next time I will pass on buying a camera.

I am going to take Rob's tack here, but let's bring it to another level, for illustrative purposes, despite Tom Lowe's look down. Tom is a great shooter, the rest is an open book.

JJ buys a Global Express business jet from the Bombardier Corporation in Montreal. Fifty odd million dollars at 2010 prices, give or take a few mil, Jim is accustomed to working in those number ranges comfortably. Said BBD Corp now slashes the price of its jet by 30 to 40%, due arcane manufacturing efficiencies not before realized, or explained, competitive pressures to boot, acing the resale value of JJ's flying machine by healthy chunks of flesh. What do you think the reaction would be? What do you think the accounting department would say?

"Red is the Color of War", I heard him say at NAB a few short months ago. One does not take such hits to the bottom line with gratitude or acceptance. All out attack, his best lawyers.

Great news for the folks waiting to buy in to the Red paradigm, not so great for the early adopters.

 

[Milan Spasic]

The fact is that you're practically alone here trying to hold your baby far beyond what should be tolerated for a very very personal agenda, in my humble opinion.

Why don't you dare to open a poll to listen this community? Even if it is in the same location you're now bashing. Or you're implicitly saying reduser doesn't represent the RED users (because what they say doesn't fit your own interest) ?

So, what are you doing here in almost every pages of this thread you can (against the opinion of a gross majority of customers as same as you -- with a big difference in any case) ?.

Rob is not alone at all. There are many Red users I know that don't dare express their legitimate concerns here because of people like Tom Lowe, now a moderator, and some other users alike, who like to insult and ostracize people who give opinions that differ from "awesome!".

The other reason being is Jim's motto "we reserve to refuse service to anybody with bad attitude", the definition of which is pretty murky. Many livelihoods here depend on the tools we chose to use and in which we are deeply vested in.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

There is always win win situation if you are with RED.i trust them and i am the happiest kid on the block with my Scarlet investment im sure one day they ll offer me chance to upgrade best camera in the world..

 

[Rob Ruffo]

They have! I paid $5k to upgrade from M to MX, $10k to upgrade to Epic, and now $6k to upgrade to the $6k Dragon sensor. My point was that it is inevitable technology will quickly get better/cheaper...RED chooses to treat their early adopters extremely well. I haven't seen anyone who only paid $10k for the Stage 3 Epic upgrade complaining about the price reduction.

No, and they have no right to. However many have recently paid 34 500 for just the barin. I paid 27 500, almost 40 including media and what-not (actually doing quick math, it was closer to 45 but that included non-Red stuff). They are customers too. If it goes down to 20 for teh brain, fine, we'll live, but of it goes down to 10 I'm sure that will be good for anybody, including the industry in general.

Remember what democratization, taken too far, means to many producers is just "I'll pay everybody less." Before I get flamed by people who do not actually make their living at this, I'll add that I do lend out our Epic for free to students and aspiring filmmakers on a regular basis, so this has nothing to do with keeping people out, it's about looking at the larger economic picture and repercussions within that.

Besides, anybody who thinks you NEED an Epic do break into the film industry is out fo their minds. With just a Scarlet, or a used MX, you are more than all set to do your demo short film and break in if you have the talent. No potential client or producer won't hire you by saying "I only work with people who have shot Epic, Red MX and Scarlet are not good enough for a demo reel of someone I would want to hire." That would make them full-on insane.

There is already plenty of democratization. Plenty of opportunity. You can get a used MX for 10K ready to shoot, or rent it for 3-5 hundred a day.

So people who say everyone should have access to Epics are coming form a strange place. Why should they?

Democratization is one thing, but Marxism is another.

 

[Jarred Land]

I am going to take Rob's tack here, but let's bring it to another level, for illustrative purposes, despite Tom Lowe's look down. Tom is a great shooter, the rest is an open book.

JJ buys a Global Express business jet from the Bombardier Corporation in Montreal. Fifty odd million dollars at 2010 prices, give or take a few mil, Jim is accustomed to working in those number ranges comfortably. Said BBD Corp now slashes the price of its jet by 30 to 40%, due arcane manufacturing efficiencies not before realized, or explained, competitive pressures to boot, acing the resale value of JJ's flying machine by healthy chunks of flesh. What do you think the reaction would be? What do you think the accounting department would say?

"Red is the Color of War", I heard him say at NAB a few short months ago. One does not take such hits to the bottom line with gratitude or acceptance. All out attack, his best lawyers.

Great news for the folks waiting to buy in to the Red paradigm, not so great for the early adopters.

Here we go with the early adopters getting screwed.

Most early adopters got their Epics for a considerable discount.. 1/3rd the current price of a current Epic price via our loyalty stages and they have had the luxury of charging market rental rates based on a camera value of three times of what they paid for the last year or so.. So its ok to charge producers a rate grossly over what you paid for the camera, but when it swings the other way it's not fair? rubbish.

It is the mid-adopters over the last year that didn't get the stage program discounts that are affected the most.. and Dragon comes into play for those to carry people's cameras into the next round instead of making their extinct.

And about the Global Express.. like most things.. it lost most of it's value as soon as it left the hanger.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I am going to take Rob's tack here, but let's bring it to another level, for illustrative purposes, despite Tom Lowe's look down. Tom is a great shooter, the rest is an open book.

JJ buys a Global Express business jet from the Bombardier Corporation in Montreal. Fifty odd million dollars at 2010 prices, give or take a few mil, Jim is accustomed to working in those number ranges comfortably. Said BBD Corp now slashes the price of its jet by 30 to 40%, due arcane manufacturing efficiencies not before realized, or explained, competitive pressures to boot, acing the resale value of JJ's flying machine by healthy chunks of flesh. What do you think the reaction would be? What do you think the accounting department would say?

"Red is the Color of War", I heard him say at NAB a few short months ago. One does not take such hits to the bottom line with gratitude or acceptance. All out attack, his best lawyers.

Great news for the folks waiting to buy in to the Red paradigm, not so great for the early adopters.

OK - I'll play along. I think he would depreciate (tax wise) the craft as rapidly as possible, use it as long as it served his needs, and never even worry about the price fluctuations in the interim. It isn't "worth" any less to him just because the price went down. It doesn't fly any slower, it's capacity didn't shrink, it's range is no different than what he knew he was buying. Oh yeah, and, unfortunately for him, his pilot isn't all of a sudden going to charge him 40% less. LOL And he "gets" that. The aircraft is never "worth" less until he goes to sell it. And, since it is a business tool, he has probably gotten full value out of it and just won't recapture as much, for tax purposes, when he sells it. On top of that, if his manufacturer values his business and gives him a good deal on a trade-in or helps him with his re-sale, all the better. But, of course, I can't speak for Jim. :smiley: Do you think he would rant and complain and be pissed off? :huh: