Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Rob Ruffo]

How about even more fundamental shift, that happened no more, than 2-3 years ago? BM bought DaVinci and color grading software, that used to cost over $150k became essentially free, overnight. Not 1/20th or 1/100th of a price, FREE! Now anyone has essentially the same tools, that were used for grading Avatar... free. Does that mean, that all of a sudden, the same high level of quality is coming out from those indy hobbyists? Of coarse not.
At the time, I was too unhappy with BM dropping the price of entry as much as the next guy, but thank god, talent still counts for something...
And when one door closes (less expensive color grading work, that now goes to guys willing to do it for next to nothing or free), another door opens. I'm talking about remote grading work. In the markets, that in the past had to settle for inferior quality or expensive "specialist" post houses, now the same company can hire someone like me, from anywhere in the world for much less. So Rob, if you look a little harder, you can get what you looking for- a reasonably priced specialist.
As they say, if life gives you lemons... You know the rest.
I love technology...

I agree that being positive is important. I also know that my skills will give me a day rate no matter what. I am however, at this juncture, hoping I will not on the 31st full-on regret buying an Epic package I took delivery on in may, and that other indy owner-operators will not see their yearly accounting decimated by a drastic price cut. This is not a talent thing, not a storytelling thing. It's a "Geez the budgets have been tough this year, and now one more blow."

Maybe next time I will pass on buying a camera.

Funny enough I'd add that I may be calling you for a project soon.

 

[Raphael Varandas]

I Can't stop talking good things about you guys, not as a Co. that I admire but as a kind of Family. It is weird and great at the same time. So proud to be in this boat. Speechless !!!
So rare to see things like this not only in this industry bu in all relations. Thank you Jim, Jarred and the whole team. Cheers from Brazil!!


"Yesterday, 12:46 AM
Jim, I applaud your transparency, your constantly evolving business model, and your concern for your customers...all too rare in this industry!"

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Rob,

If your clients want to pay a lot to be sure to feel it right hard, double your day rate.

Pat

 

[Rob Ruffo]

... there is no doubt, that at one specific moment in time, we'll se a 4k camera at "walmart" ... no question.

since "the guys" at wal mart and probably most other electronic stores around the mothership havn't any answer to 4k home theater screens and systems (as of october 2012) ... i would not see the the first part happen in the near future ... haha!

but, the trajectory for this to happen, was set when jj and gang put their brains on it, publically.
the questions are, how long will it take for everyone else to catch up.

One thing is clear to me, the one with the "root break through thinking" is and will stay in the lead, no matter what.
it is a genetic advantage.

the only exception is: another "RBTT event" occurring, somewhere ...
then, we would have true competition accellerating EVERYTHING. innovation is a mind set thing.

[... ]

The Walmart crowd wants ease of use and a light package. The pro crowd wants performance/power/control. I don't see my next door neighbor wanting an Epic to film his kids on vacation. He has an iphone for that, which he would prefer even if it cost lest than the iphone. Rules of physics dictate that no matter what good glass is just heavy. Rules of usage and UI design dictate that "easy" and "powerful" are never exactly the same thing. So no, those two worlds/markets will never meet.

 

[Zach Swena]

I think all of the scarlet customers should just trust RED to make sure they are taken care of. Remember the current scarlet came about because of poor ASIC yields from epic. RED has no possible way of knowing what they will be able to offer scarlet owners until the 2nd gen ASIC's get into moderate production, or "out of the oven" as they say. From the sounds of things, the Dragon sensor requires new ASIC's for epic also, which originally was only a sensor upgrade, thus keeping the price the same for the upgrade thus is HUGE!!! It would be interesting to see what they do for scarlet though if they get super high yield from the 2nd gen chips... To me it doesn't seem like RED would be inclined to artificially handicap cameras for a lower price point if they can help it. In that case I think we would see a seperate frame rate upgrade for scarlet. It might be a choice between new ASIC (higher frame rates) and new ASIC and bigger sensor for a premium price. Scarlet with dragon would probably end up costing similar to the price reduced epic overall so upgrading the ASIC's only might be the more sensible option.

Thus I would eventually expect a faster scarlet, possibly with full 30fps at 5k for $11k or slightly less, although I doubt it. Epic then grows in resolution and frame rates and drops to at or slightly below the origional price, although I am not sure if that would be consistent with the "obscene amount of profit" comment. A scarlet 5k for 5k option would obliterate the competition, but I think that is still a few years out.

Personally I would like to see RED focus on bringing a broadcast studio solution built around scarlet to market. They are already competitive on price, just need a firmware update and some control hardware. If the firmware included the despised 1080i, then studios could future proof their cameras without having to change any of their switching or signal processing gear.
If upgrading the processing gear was required, I would also love to see RED lead the industry with a recode based 4k TV standard. Then mabe we could skip directly from mpeg2 to 4k RED TV's without getting bogged down with ATSC2. Why should people replace all of their TV sets again just so the broadcasters can move to mpeg4 streams? If RED is adventurous enough they could totally redefine TV by coming out with a redcode based encoder and licensing a decode SDK to TV set manufactures. Just dreaming a bit, in reality, pricing your product fairly in relation to manufacturing cost is one of the best decisions RED can make.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob,

If your clients want to pay a lot to be sure to feel it right hard, double your day rate.

Pat

For teh LAST TIME - equipment rentals and your time are separate issues. My day rate is optimized - if I am taking a hit on rentals (including those to others) that is just less revenue for my wife and me to survive on.

 

[Wil Wong]

Hey Rob, I understand your point of view and sure Red is listening to it too but you must admit that change is inevitable. Sure it won't help you feel better but you can say that about the people that used to edit with linear machines before Avid, Premiere, and Final Cut was popular and inexpensive. You can ask every projectionist that no longer does film since it's all digital in the booth nowadays. Blockbuster had the DVD market but where are they now?

IBM use to sell computers. Now they sell consultation services along with other technologies. They adjusted and survived. Microsoft will most likely survive (perhaps different then what they were). That's why they got HotMail, Bing, and a host of other stuff. Yahoo didn't move as quick as Google and well, who's doing better now?

You don't have to like the fact that Red is lowering prices but then again, Red isn't the competition. Arri, Sony, Canon, and all these smaller companies like For-A and Black Magic and eventually GoPro will hit us with 4K. Lowering prices on Red isn't what will change the Rental business...the competition will with newer cameras.

By the way, I agree that the change isn't probably as drastic as we might be guessing. If it is, I still don't believe it will harm you or other rental houses. I'm sure you'll adjust too (and not in a bad manner).

 

[Wil Wong]

By the way, pushing the concept of 2 camera shoots will become perhaps a benefit to those that own 1 camera or companies that can now afford 2 camera's due to any special deals. Give clients an incentive to rent...it's like the "Pay it Forward" concept. I bet this will help the Rental houses.

 

[Elsie N]

Epic is in its own category, up there with Alexa and F65. Our clients chose between these 3 options only (and sometimes but increasingly rarely film), because our clients just want "the best". Alexa and F65 will not see drastic price cuts. There is a place for the truly high end, perceptually as well as in technical reality. If the Epic becomes too cheap it will actually be HARDER to sell on our jobs - because that's just how our world works. Those who say that's not true do not work in the ad, feature and label music video world. For fashion that is true to an extreme extent. Inevitably someone will say "It shouldn't be that way". Right. Good luck with changing how your clients think as a community.

It's not just them. It's the rental houses. They like money. They will push the higher rental quote. They will push what you are unlikely to be able to buy for yourself on a whim - they don't want too many people to no longer need them. That's fair enough. They are businesses and they can't pay their employees with anything other than money. In many markets rental houses are camera/lens only (or mainly so), and others rent grip and lights. People listen to what the camera shops have to say. It sticks in producers minds. If Epic goes too low, I predict lots of "When you shoot Epic you need at least 2 back-up bodies" style FUD stories to start hitting the rumor mill. A story from "So and so at Pro Camera Inc. I've been dealing with for 10 years" does stick in a producer's mind. Many regard these camera rental shops as experts. And again, on high end sets, spending an extra $500 a day is nothing if they feel it ensures the safety of the production

There are indeed different camps here. Tom Lowe does great work but works alone in the forest/desert, and calls me a whiner. I would prefer saying I am offering constructive criticism. I would not survive one day in Tom Lowes world (picture buzzards in the desert) , but I would venture he would not last very long in mine either (quick Tom, what kind of lighting instruments best shows off lip gloss texture?). It's important that Red hear from all of us. If I were Jim, I would want as much data as possible about the various people using my products before making a decision about anything. He is very smart. I'm sure he wants that. Mindless "Yeah awesome" if you don't, in fact, think something is awesome and have not thought it through is not useful as feedback. I am offering my personal reaction with honesty and respect.

Rob, I've gone on a long rant before concerning the Epic being delivered with a Ti PL mount as part of the accessory kit instead of later receiving the Nikon smart mount. Ended up selling the Ti PL mounts and buying an Optitek Nikon mount for camera 1 and an Underdahl Nikon mount for camera 2. My fears that I wouldn't be able to afford the switch during hard financial times kept me worrying I would not be able to make pretty pictures. I was wrong. Pictures look just fine and financially I came out alright.

What I'm saying is that you may be wrong. You may be seeing UFOs in the dark that are in fact fireflies. I know you are trying to influence the pricing before it is announced because you are afraid you could be right. But I'm thinking you and others are outnumbered probably 10 to 1... maybe even more, just as I was outnumbered by a ratio of what seemed like 100 to 1 when I went on my policy-change rant. '-)

 

[Rob Ruffo]

A truly amazing camera for a lower price...

And people are complaining?! Really? Really?!?!... Reading some replies in this thread made me cringe.

Jarred, Jim - ignore. Thanks for looking out for your customers. The vast majority of us appreciate everything you do - including the upcoming price decrease, which is absolutely great.

George

P.S. Great products for low prices - I thought this is a dream for any consumer out there. Some people baffle me. Jarred - let's increase the EPIC price to $100,000 I'm lucky - I already own one, which I bought for much cheaper. Let's stop other people from buying. Let's stop other people making great films on great cameras. Why? Simple. I want to keep the daily rate for my rentals the same.

BS guys, and you know it. You are really something.

I want to protect my investment, which was not chump-change for our middle-class household. On Oct 31st I may find our I basically BLEW almost 40K on a package that had almost no time to recoup. I often lend our Epic for free to personal artistic projects. I also mentor young people in lighting, also for free. I encourage recent graduates, help them any way I can. The fact that I think like anyone with any knowledge of business does not make me exclusionist.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, I've gone on a long rant before concerning the Epic being delivered with a Ti PL mount as part of the accessory kit instead of later receiving the Nikon smart mount. Ended up selling the Ti PL mounts and buying an Optitek Nikon mount for camera 1 and an Underdahl Nikon mount for camera 2. My fears that I wouldn't be able to get the full use of all the Nikon G lens bells and whistles kept me worrying I would not be able to make pretty pictures. I was wrong. Pictures look just fine.

What I'm saying is that you may be wrong. You may be seeing UFOs in the dark that are in fact fireflies. I know you are trying to influence the pricing before it is announced because you are afraid you could be right. But I'm thinking you and others are outnumbered probably 10 to 1... maybe even more, just as I was outnumbered by a ratio of what seemed like 100 to 1 when I went on my policy-change rant. '-)

I'm not sure. Reduser is skewed. It does not represent all owners. I told a friend in NYC about this and he had no idea. He got his Epic about 4 months ago. To say that he was happy, excited positive would be a gross misrepresentation of his reaction. He was much more openly angry and dismayed than I am, in a much less nuanced way He does not post on Red user, just checks for firmware updates through e-mails. He said "If the price is too low I am never buying anything Red again." He was even pissed at ME, because I helped talk him into his purchase.

Anyway, the fact that many people think something has never influenced what I think one way or another. I listen to their arguments and agree or not. I am not afraid to voice this. Most people are shy about voicing negative feelings toward authority figures, even if they may agree with me, so you don't hear from them on this thread.

I know that Jim and Jarred are not the types to screw up my warranty claims or make me wait for my Dragon upgrade because I am being respectfully honest here. Others may not realize that Jim and Jarred are the mature and respectful people that they are.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Hey Rob, I understand your point of view and sure Red is listening to it too but you must admit that change is inevitable. Sure it won't help you feel better but you can say that about the people that used to edit with linear machines before Avid, Premiere, and Final Cut was popular and inexpensive. You can ask every projectionist that no longer does film since it's all digital in the booth nowadays. Blockbuster had the DVD market but where are they now?

IBM use to sell computers. Now they sell consultation services along with other technologies. They adjusted and survived. Microsoft will most likely survive (perhaps different then what they were). That's why they got HotMail, Bing, and a host of other stuff. Yahoo didn't move as quick as Google and well, who's doing better now?

You don't have to like the fact that Red is lowering prices but then again, Red isn't the competition. Arri, Sony, Canon, and all these smaller companies like For-A and Black Magic and eventually GoPro will hit us with 4K. Lowering prices on Red isn't what will change the Rental business...the competition will with newer cameras.

By the way, I agree that the change isn't probably as drastic as we might be guessing. If it is, I still don't believe it will harm you or other rental houses. I'm sure you'll adjust too (and not in a bad manner).

People even go bankrupt and adjust, sure, and move on. But make no mistake, some of us here will adapt by no longer buying any more new cameras if things are too painful on the 31st.

A GoPro does not replace an Alexa/Epic/F65. They are a different market. I don't see how even if they were offering 6K RAW that would make them useful on a feature set except for one or two stunt shots - if that.

There are many repercussions from this. How long do you think it will take the Alexa camp to say "Yeah, they lowered the price because it's not worth more than that and no one was buying it."

Perception is a political and complex thing. This is a perception business. Probably less so for a guy working alone in the forest and selling his work by himself on the internet (no offense Tom, I saw your film and thought it was amazing). But for most of us, yes.

 

[Wil Wong]

hey Rob, although I don't agree with your opinion on how the change might affect Rental houses, I do agree that you and everyone should voice their opinion (as long as those opinions aren't hate, discrimination, or threats...which yours are not).

Opinions do matter and arguing is healthy. Hell, that's what governments do all the time to try and get the right solution. They debate to distinguish the best possible route. I doubt there is any penalty to you or anyone for expressing opposing opinions. It's only those that express opinions without knowledge and understanding that makes it become tougher.

I rarely like conflict but I enjoy a good discussion and like many understand that we can agree to disagree and still have respect. I think Reduser.net needs opinions that aren't purely "Love Fest" for Red cause in the end, they don't want just a "Yes"man. They want to know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

hey Rob, although I don't agree with your opinion on how the change might affect Rental houses, I do agree that you and everyone should voice their opinion (as long as those opinions aren't hate, discrimination, or threats...which yours are not).

Opinions do matter and arguing is healthy. Hell, that's what governments do all the time to try and get the right solution. They debate to distinguish the best possible route. I doubt there is any penalty to you or anyone for expressing opposing opinions. It's only those that express opinions without knowledge and understanding that makes it become tougher.

I rarely like conflict but I enjoy a good discussion and like many understand that we can agree to disagree and still have respect. I think Reduser.net needs opinions that aren't purely "Love Fest" for Red cause in the end, they don't want just a "Yes"man. They want to know what works and what doesn't.

Fully agree.

 

[Elsie N]

...

I know that Jim and Jarred are not the types to screw up my warranty claims or make me wait for my Dragon upgrade because I am being respectfully honest here. Others may not realize that Jim and Jarred are the mature and respectful people that they are.

I agree. But from my experience the people in charge are not the ones to worry about. When I was in the Army many years ago, I was stationed at Ft. Polk Louisiana in Head & Head company, Bldg 317. I worked as a PFC for a Spec 4 in Inprocessing (assigning people coming back from Vietnam to a company or position at the Base) and in the same room was another Spec 4 who worked in Outprocessing... that is clearing people who had orders to GO to Vietnam.

One day my First Sergeant from Basic Training came in with his documents and paperwork for outprocessing to his new station. He was told to leave it and come back later and pick up his completed paperwork. I remarked to the outprocessing guy that my parents had come to Ft. Polk when I graduated from Basic and asked if I could leave the base and spend some time with them. The First Shirt said no so I told my parents I could not leave Base and they left. Later the First came back and said I could leave but by then I had no idea where my parents were staying so of course that did me no good.

When I finished telling this, the outprocessing guy asked "Do you want me to lose his financial records?" I of course said no because I knew the First Sergeant was just doing his job and it was nothing personal.

But if some of those guys who assemble and upgrade cameras learn that you may have been instrumental in keeping prices high and causing fewer cameras being sold and thus being responsible for them having less work, well... I'm just sayin'... beware of the little guys.

 

[Wil Wong]

By the way, Tom, I love your work.

I'm kind of curious now what the percentage is of Red Owners that are:
- Indie Filmmakers
- Commercial Filmmakers (in the union and doing say Hollywood type movies)
- Rental Houses
- Filmmaker and renter
- Other activities (like medical stuff or photography etc).

Don't think I left out any but wow, that would be an interesting survey...

 

[Frank Cueto]

Funny that a lot of the guys complaining about the lowering of the price of the EPIC are some of the sameones that where super happy when davinci became a freeish-$1000 piece of software

The guys with the big suites and good talent are still in business, dont be afraid of this change, embrace it.

 

[Bob Gundu]

It looks clear to me that Red has high hopes for Dragon. So much so, that I believe they want to differentiate it from even Epic. I'm pretty sure you going to see some incredible tech previews of Dragon to solidify it as the premium camera. As Jarred mentioned, the view from 40,000 feet paints a very different picture. They may have accelerated this price adjustment because of Sony, but I suspect this pricing structure was part of the plan. Let's give them a little credit here guys. 4K and Raw would have been mirage if it wasn't for RED. I'm pretty confident I wouldnt have had the opportunity to play in this arena if it wasn't for Reds vision. Respect. Peace out.

 

[Brian Pascale]

Chin up, I would say only a few complained about the amazing upgrade policy you had with the Red Ones. I think universally people where blown away. Radical change will always create winners and losers, just the way it goes. And now the cycle is faster than ever.

No matter what you do, no matter how amazing, there will always be some who complain. Yes amazing it happened with the Red One upgrade program. But in general I argue that have a full and complete discussion is very valuable. I find it disturbing that freedom of speech is getting more restricted in the world. Often for what seems like good reason, don't insult people's religion, rape isn't funny, blah, blah, blah. The end result is lack of information and surpression of good speech.

Yes people complain about everything, but once in a while the complainer will give you feedback that is more valuable than all the praise.

So... Let's not call each other names. Rob Russo may seem like he is bitching, but he makes some valid points, and does so articulately.

Personally I am happy to see a price decrease even though I am still paying off my Scarlett. I really want a Epic and will get one when I can afford to.

Keep up the good work, I mostly love my Scarlett and sometimes am totally blown away by the images it creates.

You are probably correct.. at least that is what the rental companies keep telling us.

Remember when we came on the scene there was no Alexa.

Apart from Broadcast cameras, There was not much of anything capable other than $200,000 cameras on their shelves. Quickly our little $17,500 R1 camera started to shoot some pretty big movies.. getting chosen over some very expensive alternatives. It had nothing to do with the cost of the camera... it had to do with the quality of the image. Rental companies liked it because it was cheap to get into and it still played along with all their lenses and support equipment that they make the real money off of.

We always have your best interest in mind.. really. Sometimes we take alot of flack for that.. because its not always what everyone else is doing. We made a camera that shot images that would stand up for years to come... because it was so obvious to see ( at least to us ) that 1080p wasn't enough. Finally, just a few weeks ago the new 4K Consumer standard was set. This consumer standard dictates everything all of us here do, if we like it or not. The new Spec that started specifically calls out a requirement that no upscaling is allowed. Its not a good idea to shoot in 1080p anymore.... even if you can still get away with it.

Making a 1080p camera is incredible easy.. we could of done it very quickly and made a ton of money. But I wouldn't of shot it... neither would Jim. Hell.. we tried that with the 3K Scarlet remember.. we got all the way up to right before shipping.. shot with it one day and realized that even 3K wasn't enough... and pulled the plug. Because it wasn't good enough. Not for us.. not for you.

We are passionate about making the best images we possibly can.. That's our job. We make it, put as low of a price tag as humanly possible on it, and then hand it over to you. You then go and find a way to make money with it. That's your job.

But allas.. these conversations get tiring. It seems like this always happens when we try to be generous.

We recieved shit from some people over our upgrade program that gave everyone full price trade ins on their cameras.. still can't believe that one.

Some people that only ended up paying 10k for their Epic through that trade in program inevitably now will bitch that something is going to happen to the rental rates they were getting for the last year based on a 35k camera.

Give people a mountain of gold and they will complain about needing to climb it. That's just the way it is I guess.

 

[Eric Lange]

Everything in the electronics world changes... usually for the better, cheaper and faster. EPIC just did.

We have learned how to make EPICs in quantity, lowered our assembly costs, found better suppliers and paid off our NRE.That means we can continue to charge the same for an EPIC (and now make an obscene amount of profit) or lower the price.

Those of you that paid the initial price hopefully got your money's worth. It was the best price we could offer at the time. You rented your cameras. You used them to generate income by shooting projects.

The industry struggles how to handle it when technology gets better for cheaper. We just tell the truth.

We are ready to lower prices on EPIC.

So if you bought an EPIC did you lose? Only if you did not put your EPIC to work. These are professional tools. They need to work. That is your responsibility.

Is your EPIC still relevant? Absolutely. Can it be upgraded to Dragon? Yes. Is it frustrating that you paid $X and it will soon be sold for some percentage less than X? Yes. But this is the nature of electronics. It has been. It is. And it always will be.

I paid over $2400 (in 1984 dollars) for an original 1984 Macintosh. That is over $4000 worth of today's money. It had no hard drive. It was 128K of RAM. 3.5" floppys. All I could do with a 1984 Macintosh was MacPaint and MacWrite.

Today... for $4000 you can buy an iMac with a ton of RAM and a bazillion times more in storage that is 10,000 times faster and more capable with a billion times more applications. If you thought the world was changing rapidly then... hold on to your hat. We now live in the world of exponential.

So. We could easily pretend and invent a new model to justify a lower price with higher performance. You are too smart for that. So are we. Instead... we will just lower the price of EPIC.

EPIC continues to be modular. Dragon will be an upgrade. Meizler is a module. All is good in the world if you accept the fact that everything gets better, cheaper, faster and for less money over time.

If you bought an EPIC in the past 30 days... we will offer a credit towards accessories. That amount will be posted along with the new EPIC pricing. Nov. 1st is when it happens.

Here is to transparency and honesty. Here is to the future. This is all an experiment. Let's see how it goes...

Jim

Looking at the bigger picture… this is what I get from it.

So the fact that Jim says we have paid off our NRE.. i.e. non-recurring Engineering costs.

To me that’s really huge.

It says to me that (perhaps) the basic physical configuration of the Epic/Scarlet is here to stay or endure for a long time, perhaps more than a decade.

It’s a bit like how the basic Hasselblad for a LONG time in terms of basic configuration had not changed and had endured… (or at least as long as it could or can?).

That gives me a lot of confidence and would also give folks developing complimentary systems and hardware ALSO a lot of confidence.

I say well done!

It is true they could rake it all in (from this point forward) and not tell anyone, and offer no breaks… but it also seems to be a pre-emptive blocking maneuver over what the competition may try to offer in the near future perhaps? I don't know?

I think also Red may have become somewhat sensitized to what happened over the Scarlet announcement… (so I think they are just exercising caution here).

So honestly guys .. I can’t imagine a price cut that would be significantly beyond 25%?

Right?

Cheers,

Eric

(I’ll crawl back into my hole…)