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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everybody will be shooting 4k raw sooner than you think...

Bruce Allen said:
- theoretical 14 stops of dynamic range
- theoretically great color gamut
Click to expand...

did you SEE the footage at NAB? IT aint theoretical.....

The epic has great competition. As it should, cause RED's next iteration will have to surpass it. :)

My friend just bought a F65 and Leicas.... i mean. Damn. Thats gonna be the combo to beat this upcoming few years. Now.... a Epic w/ Leicas... thats also a monster.
 
Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig said:
*cough cough*

The F65 Sony is 14 stops, records @ 120 fps, 16 bits 4K FULL RGB (8K bayer pattern), 5 Gbps/s RAW recording, build-in ND filters, no rolling shutter effect, and you get with EXMOR tech you get the best sensitivity in low light...

http://www.pro.sony.eu/biz/lang/en/eu/product/4kcinematographycamcorders/f65/features
Click to expand...

Damn - you're right; why did I order a Scarlet when I could have just as easily bought an F65!! LOL

(And, I think Bart was suggesting he was going to wait for a better priced camera than Scarlet with equal or better specs. I agreed, he should wait... and wait...) REDCode is patented, I believe. Not that someone can't develop a great codec on their own but, so far, they seem very reluctant.
 
Bart your are right there will be new cameras coming, there will always be new cameras coming. I know a cameraman who paid $80K plus for a Sony top of the line XD Cam about 1 and half years ago. You can now buy the F65 ( a superior camera compared to an XD even the F3 is better) from the same company for around the same money. Imagine how he feels. Sony would never have done this without being pushed by its competitors ie. RED. I have seen more camera development in the last few years than the previous 20, may the revolution continue.
 
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I did not read all the responses, but I have to state this. Jim started the innovation to 4k in cinema cameras...do you really think that's all he has up his sleeve? Most innovators are innovators at heart...Maybe there is no new fresh ideas...but I really DO think so. Not to mention, try to get those other companies to accept trade-ins and discounts, free software and firmware upgrades...
 
RED is unbeatable not because of cameras they invented, because of the team they have. Other companies are huge and have a lots of inertia an bureaucracy. Most of them focused on quarterly reports, not on customers needs. RED team is compact and mobile, and this is the reason why they can move forward faster than any other competitors on market.
 
Scarlet will be my first owned "cinema" quality digital camera, and I must say that I owe the priveledge of being able to afford my own serious moviemaking camera rig to RED !!! Many, many years ago when digital ENG type cameras first entered the marketplace, I searched for a manufacturer that could help me realize my dream (cinema camera ownership) for a "reasonable" price of entry. The only real option at the time was Sony and they wanted 100K to start. I remember thinking about how paranoid I would feel driving around with a camera in the trunk of my car that cost the same as a house! The price of entry was too steep for me then and Sony's tech now is really not any different when looking at price of entry. it seems that Sony hasn't really changed their attitude price-wise to attracting new start up camera owners and encouraging art to be made with their tools. (comparing apples to apples with RED tech and options)
4K is definately the only way to go for the next forseeable future, from a cinema quality and compatibility with the theatres point of view. Being able to shoot a feature (4K @ 24FPS) and show it on a theatre screen with better quality than 35MM film is the base benchmark that I require from my personally owned camera. Price of entry to owning such a camera has always been the blockade for me...
Enter stage left: SCARLET-X
RED knocked down the price of entry blockade and this allows others like me to travel down the road of proud CINEMA Camera ownership !! A "Thanks to Team RED" doesn't begin to express my gratitude...they have ALL been in my prayers nightly since Nov. 03 !! There is just so much to be grateful for in this world and RED is currently sitting at the top of my list.
 
Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig said:
*cough cough*

The F65 Sony is 14 stops, records @ 120 fps, 16 bits 4K FULL RGB (8K bayer pattern), 5 Gbps/s RAW recording, build-in ND filters, no rolling shutter effect, and you get with EXMOR tech you get the best sensitivity in low light...

http://www.pro.sony.eu/biz/lang/en/eu/product/4kcinematographycamcorders/f65/features
Click to expand...


How much is Red? How muck is F65?????? $65,000 body $50,000 for Raw Recder.......... over 100,000k yeah go sell you house!!!!
 
Solomon Nero said:
I did not read all the responses, but I have to state this. Jim started the innovation to 4k in cinema cameras...do you really think that's all he has up his sleeve? Most innovators are innovators at heart...Maybe there is no new fresh ideas...but I really DO think so. Not to mention, try to get those other companies to accept trade-ins and discounts, free software and firmware upgrades...
Click to expand...


I'm fairly certain Dalsa made the first 4k camera. RED made the first affordable one.
 
Bart Allen said:
I hate to admit this but the reality of the situation is that the camera market given the current trend, RED will no longer be your only choice to shoot 4k/5k Raw!
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Maybe I miss the point you're trying to make, Bart, but why would that be a bad thing?
i cannot wait for every camera to be at least 4K (and I'm a die-hard old-school film guy) so at least the whole "i've got more Ks than you" debate gets out of the way. It was the same in the stills world: for years we witnessed the whole Canon vs Nikon thing (which still goes on to a certain extent but it's nothing compared to what was happening,say, 5 years ago), along with "this camera has more megapixels than the others". Then, almost all of a sudden, people realized that for the majority of professionals the cameras available on the market had way more resolution than they could possibly use, and the "debate" slowed down quite a bit, to the point that now no one would pick a camera only because it had 1 or 2 more megapixels than the other.
So, yes, thank goodness, in the near future there will be plenty of real 4K cameras to choose from, RAW or not, all with slightly different features and their own way to approach same problems, and all with a slightly different "look": we'll get to choose a camera because of many factors, and resolution won't be one of those because all cameras will more or less have the same (except larger sensor cameras used for specific purposes, pretty much the same of what happens today with medium-format still cameras, or for ultra-high-speed work, or IMAX). Actually, by seeing how many productions go with Alexa these days, you could almost say that resolution is not an issue anymore even now (though I'm not saying that 2K and 4K are the same, at all).
Unfortunately, all will have their own proprietary data system and have thousands of different workflows, but at the same time the IIF/ACES system will hopefully be adopted widely and things will get more "standardized".
I'm sure it's different for the ones who want to invest a lot of money in a specific system and worry about its market value in a year or so, but for the rest of us who have never owned a camera (and have no reason to) and rent equipment all the times (I suspect we're the majority), the more tools we can choose from, the better.
 
I agree i predict a 4k camera good to go for under 10 grand within 18 months.Thats everything you need to shoot,record to,etc.In 3 years it will be the norm.
 
I think 4k is going to be the shooting standard sooner rather than later.

It seems that the delivery for 4k is here already. You tube 4k, looks decent, but its just the starting point. The main idea being that online distribution, where frame size isnt governed by "Time warner" "FCC" "BluRay" etc... 4k Can be delivered now. Its watchable on a 1080p screen, and when the first 4k TV's come out, it will be ready go. The distinction between TV and Computer will be even more gray.... It already is...

I wasnt sold until recently, when 4k Youtube worked on my laptop, and worked well. it proves that 4k can be viewed in a reasonable quality internet stream, on existing internet infrastructure. Nothing new needs to be added. Granted as bandwidth improves, the by product will be less comression, and overall image quality; but the foundation is here and it works.

RED has taken moores law, forced it to blow a few lines of Speed, and set it loose. 1 year ago, i was convinced 4k would take a decade to be implemented. Now i think it will be 1/5th that. Just unreal. Hell, even sony has a "8k" camera to get a nice crisp 4k. Meaning the final product is 4k. Not 1080p. Those days are gone.
 
When 4K HDTVs will be in stores, I guess that nearly almost video cam will be 4K too.
 
Timur Civan said:
Everyone keeps quoting RED DRAGON.... but what is it? does any one know? FF? Cleaner? 8k? 6k? 5k @ FF so it has ginourmous pixels?
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It's most likely monstro. And last we heard Monstro was +2 stops of dynamic range (15.5)

Remember it's been two cycles of Moore's law since MX was released and MX was presumably based on the Mysterium sensor which is about 4.5 years old. In electronics terms that's a dinosaur. We also know Jarred said it was a much bigger improvement than Myserium to MX. Which was about a 1.5 stop increase in Dynamic Range.
 
So hd is 20,000 this year but 4k will be 10g ready to shoot in 18 months, is this a little fast to anyone else?
 
:dita:
Terry VerHaar said:
Damn - you're right; why did I order a Scarlet when I could have just as easily bought an F65!! LOL

(And, I think Bart was suggesting he was going to wait for a better priced camera than Scarlet with equal or better specs. I agreed, he should wait... and wait...) REDCode is patented, I believe. Not that someone can't develop a great codec on their own but, so far, they seem very reluctant.
Click to expand...
 
:dita:
Terry VerHaar said:
I agree, you should definitely wait for this to happen before you jump into the market. Don't be insulted, however, if some of us don't "trust you" in this judgement. Technology moves fast but Canon , et al, has yet to do more than just crawl forward. 4K, sure. RAW, maybe some day, maybe. But, 4K + RAW (patented REDCode!) + modular + HDRx + RCK (free) + 13.5 stops + 800 iSO native + (well, you get the picture) - not gonna happen soon. :mellow:

As RED has been known to say in quoting Wayne Gretzy, "you don't skate to where the puck is, you skate to where the puck is going to be." Canon hasn't even seen the puck, yet. lol By the time they figure it out, RED will have moved on.
Click to expand...
 
dmitry burenok said:
RED is unbeatable not because of cameras they invented, because of the team they have. Other companies are huge and have a lots of inertia an bureaucracy. Most of them focused on quarterly reports, not on customers needs. RED team is compact and mobile, and this is the reason why they can move forward faster than any other competitors on market.
Click to expand...


It is about the total experience - the ecology a company creates, e.g. Red.

Innovation generally occurs at the periphery, i.e. small companies that are agile and creative.

The big guys can buy out the smaller co's and in many cases they simply pillage and steal - unfortunate yet the norm.
Even when they don't succeed they poison the industry, the communities and so on.

Competition exclusively is not the source of creativity and progress, in fact in many cases it has adverse effects, as a cursory glance at most products confirms.

A more affordable price does not guarantee better value, much as higher technical specs do not guarantee a better movie.
Often the opposite is true, owing to more rapid devaluation and obsolescence. (otherwise infinite growth and infinite inflation would be desirable)

Again, what is important is the total experience - the ecology, whether of the film, the company, society, etc.

This is priceless and it is what nurtures sustainable success.
 
Bart Allen said:
I hate to admit this but the reality of the situation is that the camera market given the current trend, RED will no longer be your only choice to shoot 4k/5k Raw! Soon the market will be flooded with Canon, Sony,or what have you company making 4k tech available not only for a more affordable price but will render RED not as unique as once before because unfortunately RED has paved the way for all these company's that will try and copy and to a point succeed in offering almost, if not identical raw footage. I love RED but I see no need to go into Debt and take out loans and max out credit cards for this tech that will soon be available almost every where with very competitive prices for the masses ia year or 2 maybe less. I know you will all jump on my back for posting this, but try not to act like fanboys and crucify me for not completely singing RED praises because I have been crucified in the past for loving RED so much and never saying a negative word and being called a fanboy in the past, so don't contradict your past criticism of my so called fanboy RED praise, you all challenged me to think for myself and not always agree with everything RED so here it is! an original non RED thought. Mark my words the raw 4k revolution is coming and we all have RED to thank, Love ya RED for paving the way!!!!! p.s. Trust me, Canon will learn from there 20k mistake camera....:rant:
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Agree
 
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