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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Every once in awhile...

Teague Kennedy said:
Built in would be fantastic. More options doesn't cheapen the package. When shooting in light configuration doc style and daylight I'm forced to use a variable ND (opposing polarizers). Can't be dealing with a matte box and 4x5 filters. Not ideal at all. I'd love a built in.
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It's just a preference thing. I find it reminds me of a handy-cam which Epic and Scarlet are not. Red Digital Cinema, screams for glass. But, I know plenty of people who would love a built in ND.
 
Either a mechanical shutter or a global electronic shutter would be ideal. Don't care at all about an OVF. I personally find rolling shutter artifacts to be some of the most unpleasant and distracting things to happen in the history of motion capture. People are always claiming that it's not a problem any more with Reds, and I can certainly believe that it's not for them. But I've had 3 Reds and it's always causing little issues for me personally. Not trying to be provocative. Just stating my preference and hope for a global shutter in the future.
 
Hahaha. Wow, the more things change, the more they stay the same. OVF and Built in ND, and mechanical shutters......It all has been said, suggested, advantages and disadvantages, hollered, begged for, and ultimately forgotten before. It came up with R1, Epic, Scarlet, and now its coming up again without even a new body to suggest it as even a possibility. So I would just like to suggest three simple things. 1. If you think it is a novel and new idea for Red, search the history first, chances are its not. 2. If you still think it is a good idea and want to push it, imagine a small child asking you the same question over and over and over again, and realize that this is what we all have put jim, jarred, and everyone else at red through for over half a decade now. and 3. If that still doesn't dissuade you, when Jim finally reads it, writes back that its been tried and failed, please let it go. please. pleeeaaassse haha
 
Chances are that some enterprising soul is going to try to engineer alternative EPIC/SCARLETT mounts with two mechanically actuated opposed polarisers in the crawlspace behind the flange face for ND. Lens choices would become restricted. Backfocus would also be adversely affected. I vaguely recall that at some time in the past, there was talk of a variable ND based on optical stabilser fluid prism technology which would be also capable of limited and orientable graduation across the frame. Something like that might also fit in the crawlspace behind the lens but the same backfocus caveats would likely apply.

The "live lens" formerly "smart filter" tech which was being developed over here in the West might also be a candidate. I understand they may have found no future with RED or other entities. The original "live lens" tech was aimed at expanding dynamic range of now older sensors which have been surpassed by RED, ARRI, SI (Altasens) and others. It might remain viable in a more simplified mode. I am four years out of recency with their developments.
 
Paul Ellington said:
Please don't hate me Gunleik, you know hopefully I respect you tremendously. I feel it cheapens the camera to build in the ND... It's a cinema camera... Even on a Bolex you'd have to cut gel carefully.

-E
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I don't hate you at all! Quite the oposite.

But on the Bolex you could load a 50 asa film... :)

THAT is not an option on the REDs.

And you know I love my cam, right?

Hahahahaha
 
Dont throw the baby out with the bath water and just because a feature was used on video cameras does not make it bad. Built in ND filters wheels on video cameras were and are a tremendous asset. F65 is a serious camera and its built in NDs do not diminish it. Lets not get camera snobby. The weather and light can and does change equally fast no matter what camera is used and precious seconds saved by built in ND can be a real lifesaver when you need to respond quickly
 
Paul Ellington said:
Please don't hate me Gunleik, you know hopefully I respect you tremendously. I feel it cheapens the camera to build in the ND... It's a cinema camera... Even on a Bolex you'd have to cut gel carefully.

-E
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It didn't "cheapen" the Alexa Studio... neither its feel or price tag:)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I don't hate you at all! Quite the oposite.

But on the Bolex you could load a 50 asa film... :)

THAT is not an option on the REDs.

And you know I love my cam, right?

Hahahahaha
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I know, just feels odd to me... Sidney, I am not going to get started on the camera named after my ex who wasn't very nice. But you're making me... Yes, it makes 100K plus camera even more of a joke. Not a joke in the sense that it is a bad camera, a joke in the sense that I would never own one. Did Arri put a kitchen sink in as well?
 
A lot of us threw the 'built in ND filter' thing to Red way back when they were designing the R1. As it didn't turn up in Epic either I think it's safe to say it's not on their priority list.

I'd like to be wrong. Wouldn't they have to design a completely new brain anyway?
 
Red cameras exclusively digital cinema cameras? Really? Let's explore this a bit further:

Red One incorporates extensive traditional EFP (electronic field production) camera features, which I've itemized in numerous threads here on Red User over these many years. Consequently Red One has been used extensively for non-hardlined EFP work for many years. EFP is by far the largest portion of the overall motion media industry in terms of number of productions worldwide, number of workers, dollar amount of camera equipment bought, etc. - and non-hardlined EFP is the largest portion of the EFP industry. Stuart English of Red, who has a massive EFP camera industry background, has affirmed and re-affirmed many times on Red User threads that though Red cameras are primarily designed to be digital cinema cameras, they were also intentionally designed to be used for EFP work.

Being primarily a mobile EFP industry guy myself, one of the traditional EFP camera features that I suggested for Red One way back at the inception of Red was internal ND filters. Unfortunately that didn't make it into the finalized camera. That forced mobile EFP users of the camera, who wanted to avoid the bulk, weight, and public high profile of a matte box and follow focus to use screw on filters on the 35mm still lenses they almost always used on Red One. All of us EFP guys got really good at the workaround - having a waist pouch of screw on filters, and changing them out very quickly.

Fast forward up to Epic and Scarlet. There are many more traditional EFP features (and DSLR features) in Epic and Scarlet than in Red One. I've itemized them on many past threads here on Red User. Again with Epic and Scarlet I lobbied hard all along for the inclusion of internal ND filters. Unfortunately for mobile EFP shooters that didn't make it into the finalized cameras.

Once again, for all Red cameras and camera modifications looking forward I'm throwing my hat in the ring for the inclusion of internal ND filters on Red cameras. That way if someone shoots cine style, fine, just use a MB and FF as you normally would. But if someone shoots mobile EFP style they could opt to use the internal ND filters. Best of both worlds - if you shoot both styles, as many of us do, you're all set no matter which style you're shooting. The digital cinema cameras which are now being marketed to "compete" with Red cameras (F65, Alexa, etc) feature internal ND filters - and IMO so should Red cameras.

Though Red One, Epic, and Scarlet are marketed as primarily digital cinema cameras, in terms of those camera's technology roots they are most closely related in order of relation to: 1) a DSLR 2) an EFP camera 3) a traditional cine (film) camera. They're marketed by Red as DSMC (digital motion and still) cameras. The inclusion of an internal ND filter on Red cameras would further unlock the versatility and utility of Red cameras - and in the process help Red to sell many more cameras.

With media and technology convergence, the influx of workers from the cine, DSLR, and EFP industries, and the rapid growth of the hybrid mobile EFP style of shooting with Red cameras, its way past the time for this community get over the anachronistic biases of the former film industry. We're all one community now. Respect for other's equipment needs should transcend the former industry dividing lines. Let's all get over this "red-headed stepchild" attitude toward anything "video", "television", or "EFP". The sooner the better...

I'll ask again of Red: Please include internal ND filters on all future iterations and models of your cameras. To do so will influence the mobile EFP industry to more further use your cameras, unlock the expanded utility of your cameras, and also enable Red as a company to sell more cameras. That would be a win/win/win situation all around.
 
Is there no third party developer of behind the lens ND's and or clear glass for the epics?
It cant be that hard to make. Especially with the easily adjusted backfocus and removable mounts.

A port bussing with a ND9 glass and then a bussing with clear glass with the same thickness to use for sensor protection and making sure the backfocus remains the same... is it more difficult than that?

Think there would be a quite a market, for daylight shooting etc.
 
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