Eventual Helium Sensor-Only Upgrade?

[Brody_B]

an option to use the whole sensor size with some sort of magic computer stuff
Ian

unless RED changes their philosophy and their technology, every time you see a resolution that is less than the full sensor, it means it will be cropped. Long ago RED denounced the idea of line skipping and/or pixel binning to achieve a certain resolution. It's one of the things that makes REDraw superior to the output from a Canon 5D or other cameras that employ these techniques. It just is not in RED's DNA and, if I am not mistaken, might not even be possible given the way REDcode compression works.

...

 

[Brody_B]

Completely agree Ian. For me I really don't see the allure of In Cam prores. Red's big revolution is REDCODE RAW. Nowadays, editing Redcode even in the higher end Online and Grading suites is a breeze and hassle free, I don't see why clients still "demand" prores. Also, decoding to prores in Post does make you waste a bit of extra disk space and time, but its fast in current machines.

I would definitely prefer my upcoming Epic W to be all RAW and offer me a "proxy" full sensor 4K 120/150fps REDCODE file than having both Redcode and Prores. A Epic W R. If this was a paid upgrade I would jump to it. If this is anywhere possible, Red, please make it happen! Prores? I can make it in post. Redcode ? No way!

Red will never cut quality to make this happen. This is what most crap DSLR's do.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Red will never cut quality to make this happen. This is what most crap DSLR's do.

I wouldn't say its a cut in quality- I would say its a boost in quality. I'm not saying recording in 1/4 redcode at lower resolutions. I'm saying recording lower resolution, higher FPS redcode only. Not 2 files, one 8K and another 4K. Just one file, putting all camera resources to it. Obviously I don't know if this is possible!

 

[Andrei Goaga]

I'm feeling a bit like this as well. The MG is less than half a year old and I haven't even had time to do any proper jobs with it due to some editing jobs taking up my time. So if I were to replace my camera with an Epic-W, that would be like trading in a totally new camera for it. To discontinue a camera so soon after release makes it hard to even trust the Helium releases. Will they also be obsolete in six months? A year? When Epic came along it had at least two years before the Dragon sensor became the standard sensor. So it's a bit disruptive towards people who doesn't have unlimited funds to buy new cameras. Our plans were to work between upgrades and save up for the upgrades, but limiting this upgrade window to december 31st just makes it pretty much impossible for some of us to be able to save up in time. On top of that there's the fact that it cost $9500 to upgrade a camera that's around 2000-3000 in price difference when buying. Selling my MG for $26000 would land me a new Epic-W at price difference of $4000 instead. It makes little sense to pay that much to trade in the MG. The effective upgrade price for MG owners should rather be $5000 in my opinion. That's a much more logical price compared to the rest of the cameras since it much better reflects the actual difference between the two. Not to mention that Scarlet-w orders get the same camera for the price that MG owners have to pay. Both doing that and having a short window for MG owners to upgrade just feels like MG owners got left behind on this. Yeah, we got the $15000 to upgrade to the Weapon Helium but we effectively paid the same when going between Epic Dragon and Weapon MG, meaning that the value of the Epic Dragon, which was around 19K ends up + upgrades within a year being 30K + 19K for getting the Weapon Helium, essentially the upgrades didn't save us anything on the plus side, it's basically just a trade in for the exact same sum. And as for Epic-W that becomes even worse, meaning we had 19K + 15K + 9,5K = $43500 for an Epic-W while Scarlet-W orders got it for around half that price. So MG owners had to pull proportionally a lot more cash into their upgrade than the others. Why MG owners doesn't get a 4500 - 5000 upgrade price to Epic-W is beyond me. CF owners get around that price for going Weapon Helium which is in the same price ballpark, but MG owners get to pay more for Epic-W in comparison. Compared to the others I really don't get the $9500 upgrade price.

Because what you think is the "correct" price for us Mg owners to upgrade to Epic-W is not that correct. If the CF guys get 5K to put in the Helium sensor, then Mg should pay more because they are upgrading ASICs also. So if you say 5K is correct, then CF should pay 2.5K probably. Or the "correct" price for the Mg -> Epic-W should be 7.5K or more, that is exactly what it is 9.5K, a fair price considering everything that goes on to make the upgrade.

Maybe they could have offered 5K to go to Epic-W, but that would have put a looot of extra pressure on the what I assume is already a really really crowded que on the Epic-W.

So RED decided to give us Mg owners something that I personally took as route to upgrade and something that I think is one of the best deals - 15K to go Weapon Helium

*oh, and if you end up summing up all the upgrades to the total cost of a new Weapon Helium -> then the upgrade path is worth 2 - 3 times more in terms of effective gain, why? Because for the same money that you would have paid to get a Weapon Helium now, you used a lot of iteration of the RED camera that I am sure helped you out growing your business and has given you a lot in return. So no, it really isn't fair to sum upgrade prices and compare it with what the camera you are upgrading now costs off the shelf.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

I wouldn't say its a cut in quality- I would say its a boost in quality. I'm not saying recording in 1/4 redcode at lower resolutions. I'm saying recording lower resolution, higher FPS redcode only. Not 2 files, one 8K and another 4K. Just one file, putting all camera resources to it. Obviously I don't know if this is possible!

I completely agree...a full FOV and "dense 'n smooth 'n clean" 4K R3D derived and subsampled from 8K would be HUGE and a game changer...imho.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Because what you think is the "correct" price for us Mg owners to upgrade to Epic-W is not that correct. If the CF guys get 5K to put in the Helium sensor, then Mg should pay more because they are upgrading ASICs also. So if you say 5K is correct, then CF should pay 2.5K probably. Or the "correct" price for the Mg -> Epic-W should be 7.5K or more, that is exactly what it is 9.5K, a fair price considering everything that goes on to make the upgrade.

Maybe they could have offered 5K to go to Epic-W, but that would have put a looot of extra pressure on the what I assume is already a really really crowded que on the Epic-W.

So RED decided to give us Mg owners something that I personally took as route to upgrade and something that I think is one of the best deals - 15K to go Weapon Helium

*oh, and if you end up summing up all the upgrades to the total cost of a new Weapon Helium -> then the upgrade path is worth 2 - 3 times more in terms of effective gain, why? Because for the same money that you would have paid to get a Weapon Helium now, you used a lot of iteration of the RED camera that I am sure helped you out growing your business and has given you a lot in return. So no, it really isn't fair to sum upgrade prices and compare it with what the camera you are upgrading now costs off the shelf.

I've to say I absolutely agree with you about the Weapon Helium upgrade...but...Chris is somewhat right too.

So much that I think it's intentional.

It's called UPSELLING, and it's a pillar of sales tactics.

 

[Andrei Goaga]

It's called UPSELLING, and it's a pillar of sales tactics.

If you say that Mg -> Weapon Helium is an Upselling tactic, I don't quite agree -> because we are getting an upgrade for 15K, that CF owners got for 25K, so I think we are on the great side of the "upselling" thing

Also, Scalet-W got "upsaled" into an Epic-W they are paying 10K less (and a lot of previos waiting time) ... and they are extremely happy in that position also

So I really think RED got the numbers right for a majority of people. Way more people are happier after the launch on 11th than could have been possible to imagine.

 

[Bob Gundu]

remember... none of this is supposed to make sense. Next year, all of this will vanish and go back to our regular scheduled program.

 

[Ian D]

I completely agree...a full FOV and "dense 'n smooth 'n clean" 4K R3D derived and subsampled from 8K would be HUGE and a game changer...imho.

Thats it in a nut shell, I think 8k raw for the big stuff but an option for a 4.5k subsampled would be incredible, even 4.5 k only from the 8 k would be very interesting.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

If you say that Mg -> Weapon Helium is an Upselling tactic, I don't quite agree -> because we are getting an upgrade for 15K, that CF owners got for 25K, so I think we are on the great side of the "upselling" thing

Also, Scalet-W got "upsaled" into an Epic-W they are paying 10K less (and a lot of previos waiting time) ... and they are extremely happy in that position also

So I really think RED got the numbers right for a majority of people. Way more people are happier after the launch on 11th than could have been possible to imagine.

upselling is a sale strategy where you convince the buyer to spend more than what he initially planned.

And asking you $9500 for Epic-W and $15000 for a Weapon Helium is called UPSELLING, which is not a bad thing.

It's like 3x2 at the supermarket, you get more, sure, but maybe you didn't needed it...like Chris mentioned, he just wanted his camera to last a little longer
or that his investment in the middle tier could be spent better in the current middle tier (Epic-W), instead of indirectly "pushing" him to the higher tier.

I even consider Epic-W a slight tier downgrade from Weapon MG actually (the problem here is how good is the MG ha!),
I'm referring to FOV disadvantage and possibly noisier footage at the same res and exposure levels when overcranking from 120fps.

So it's like selling 1 yoghurt for $10 and one which is triple its size for $12, in my mind.
And that's called UPSELLING.

I'm not critic, in fact I'm upgrading to Weapon Helium, but it wasn't a planned expense, especially so soon.
Again, UPSELLING, and increased cash flow...

remember... none of this is supposed to make sense. Next year, all of this will vanish and go back to our regular scheduled program.

...aaaaand new products will come...

Thats it in a nut shell, I think 8k raw for the big stuff but an option for a 4.5k subsampled would be incredible, even 4.5 k only from the 8 k would be very interesting.

4K from 8K is much less processing intensive tho and reframing is for pussies (kidding...sort of...)

 

[Andrei Goaga]

upselling is a sale strategy where you convince the buyer to spend more than what he initially planned.

And asking you $9500 for Epic-W and $15000 for a Weapon Helium is called UPSELLING, which is not a bad thing.

It's like 3x2 at the supermarket, you get more, sure, but maybe you didn't needed it...like Chris mentioned, he just wanted his camera to last a little longer
or that his investment in the middle tier could be spent better in the current middle tier (Epic-W), instead of indirectly "pushing" him to the higher tier.

I even consider Epic-W a slight tier downgrade from Weapon MG actually (the problem here is how good is the MG ha!),
I'm referring to FOV disadvantage and possibly noisier footage at the same res and exposure levels when overcranking from 120fps.

So it's like selling 1 yoghurt for $10 and one which is triple its size for $12, in my mind.
And that's called UPSELLING.

I'm not critic, in fact I'm upgrading to Weapon Helium, but it wasn't a planned expense, especially so soon.
Again, UPSELLING, and increased cash flow...



...aaaaand new products will come...



4K from 8K is much less processing intensive tho and reframing is for pussies (kidding...sort of...)

I got what you are saying, but I have a feeling this is not the same as buying 3 yogurts instead of 2

Specifically for MgW capabilities the upgrade to Epic-W doesn't make sense, even if it was cheaper than it is If I think better it would have been hard to decide even if it was free to switch. When you go from Mg to Epic-W you are trading higher FPS at a decent FOV for resolution and some low-light capabilities.

The only rational upgrade, in the true sense of an upgrade, from MgW is Weapon Helium, and that's why I am really glad and happy they offered it at a good price.

And after they offered this great upgrade possibility, they stopped making the MgW because it would have remained as an odd choice in the line-up, a bit out of place - price wise, and spec wise.

That's why I feel this upgrade to Weapon Helium is not a sale strategy, but more of a result of the streamlining of RED's camera line-up.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

I got what you are saying, but I have a feeling this is not the same as buying 3 yogurts instead of 2

Specifically for MgW capabilities the upgrade to Epic-W doesn't make sense, even if it was cheaper than it is If I think better it would have been hard to decide even if it was free to switch. When you go from Mg to Epic-W you are trading higher FPS at a decent FOV for resolution and some low-light capabilities.

The only rational upgrade, in the true sense of an upgrade, from MgW is Weapon Helium, and that's why I am really glad and happy they offered it at a good price.

And after they offered this great upgrade possibility, they stopped making the MgW because it would have remained as an odd choice in the line-up, a bit out of place - price wise, and spec wise.

That's why I feel this upgrade to Weapon Helium is not a sale strategy, but more of a result of the streamlining of RED's camera line-up.

100% agree on Epic-W, exactly!

But it is an upselling, like Epic-W from Scarlet-W...

You know...upselling is key to a successful business and RED isn't fooling around...ha!