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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

epics in the 1000s ???

Hard to say how pricing will settle. In the film world for decades the "1% of purchase price per day" was a good rule of thumb for a days rate. But in the digital world these rules don't seem to apply as digital gear's life is sometimes measured in months not years! The Red camera gear has a longer shelf life from the commitment to "end obscurity" but that doesn't seem to stop the general higher rental rates then the 1% rule.

If I had to guess the Red One will settle around 500, and the Epic X/M around 8-900 for a basic body/pwr kit. This is of coarse after supply exceeds demand (if and when!)

IMHO
 
In SoCal RedOneMX day rates have dropped to around $600 for body and power.

Epic-M kits went from $1,800 to $1,400 to $1,200 since the beginning of the year. With the X release I see $900 by the end of the year for body and power.

What is perhaps more interesting is what renters will expect in a basic X "kit". With the M you had a pre-built kit compliment that included 4) 128GB SSDs, 4 RedVolts (vs 2) & bomb EVF that are not in the recently re-configured X pkg. Most people will likely expect the side handle, touchscreen LCD and other "base" aks included. What about media? $50/day for 256BG SSDs is what I've been asking. I know that's more than 1% of their cost but that's a $3,200 investment. Just saying'

Cheers - #19
 
@Stephen

I think rental rates should be what Jeff is talking about in this thread.

Stage 2 people need to realize that RED has increased the value of the investment with the RED EPIC M program.

I think that X and M rates should be identical because the performance is identical. I do not think that people will pay a premium for an M but the 1% to 2% rule applies.

Renters should be modular, like the system.

You were right about the R1 MX rate for the body only. One has to factor the cost of the whole kit. Lenses, MB, follow focus, media, monitors, viewfinders, bomb evf, lighting, audio, back up bodies, etc.

Problem is most people fill the van and throw everything into a low day rate.

BAD MOVE for everybody.

If everybody follows the 1% - 2% rule for gear then we train the marketplace that there is a cost associated with high quality imagining devices.

The rental houses need to do that too. I've seen one day Weeks get handed out and that's just not smart for anyone.

The important thing us to consider every piece of kit that us going in to that rental price plus labour.

I'm with Jeff, eventually the EPIC prices will level out to stage 4 pricing. This is good for all, even M owners who will be in depreciation land by then.

In short. Get the right rate for what you paid. You deserve it and the camera warrants it.


David
 
The rate also depends on where you are.

Stephen is also swiss based and prices here are 30-50% cheaper than in the US, even if the buying cost are the same.

I was AVID DS operator and at that time I could earn 400$ a day here in Switzerland, in the US it was 600-800$.

58000$ investment will be difficult to sell for more than 900$ a day.

Patrick
 
Patrick, what is the current rate in Ch for an Epic, you have rented one. Thanks Stephen

Patrick Tresch said:
The rate also depends on where you are.

Stephen is also swiss based and prices here are 30-50% cheaper than in the US, even if the buying cost are the same.

I was AVID DS operator and at that time I could earn 400$ a day here in Switzerland, in the US it was 600-800$.

58000$ investment will be difficult to sell for more than 900$ a day.

Patrick
Click to expand...
 
they will go for what they go for.

you will see epic x packages on craigslist for 500 bucks a day.

I dont think it matters at what other people will pay for them.. the 1% applies to how much you invested, not how much others will have to invest
 
Where are people getting this 1% figure? In most cases rental house prices are usually around 1/45th of the retail - but depreciation time is also a factor. So for a $58k camera it would be about $1300 a day which is fair, reasonable and quickly recoupable. Rental houses will also do 8 day months on camera gear so basically you could count on getting an epic for a month in the $10k range, once they are saturated enough that a $10k a month rental isnt going to be a loss of money.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
they will go for what they go for.

you will see epic x packages on craigslist for 500 bucks a day.
Click to expand...

Zakaree,

What's that line, "if you think a professional is expensive then just hier an amateur and see how much it costs you."

Producers probably do those listings just to point you to it to drive your price down.

You seem like a reliable person who does good work. Don't let the grinders drive you down. Get what you deserve on every shoot and do your job really well. Everyone I have ever met like that in my entire life never has a shortage of work or money. I'm pretty sure you fall into that category.

THe market is the market. Just be your best in it.

David
 
If there are around 1000 the limited edition-ess of the it is awesome. if there are in "1000s", then I do not see the difference between EPIC-X and EPIC-M. Also which parts of the EPIC-M is machined, to my it looks the same from atleast from the outside. Just curious.
 
David Battistella said:
Zakaree,

What's that line, "if you think a professional is expensive then just hier an amateur and see how much it costs you."

Producers probably do those listings just to point you to it to drive your price down.

You seem like a reliable person who does good work. Don't let the grinders drive you down. Get what you deserve on every shoot and do your job really well. Everyone I have ever met like that in my entire life never has a shortage of work or money. I'm pretty sure you fall into that category.

THe market is the market. Just be your best in it.

David
Click to expand...


I dont really rent my gear out unless its something im doing, but in epics case, im hoping to just stash it away in a house and let it make the money for me.. depending on what a rental house gives me, if they even want it.

the price def needs to reflect the cost in insurance, upkeep, and initial cost + depreciation
 
Nathan Beaman said:
Where are people getting this 1% figure? In most cases rental house prices are usually around 1/45th of the retail - but depreciation time is also a factor. So for a $58k camera it would be about $1300 a day which is fair, reasonable and quickly recoupable. Rental houses will also do 8 day months on camera gear so basically you could count on getting an epic for a month in the $10k range, once they are saturated enough that a $10k a month rental isnt going to be a loss of money.
Click to expand...

Where does 1% come from? Semantics... Common and long-established business practices. This is not unique to the film / camera rental industry. It also seems you haven't analyzed the "business end" of the 3-day week we see in this and many other industries. As for the 8-day month... Um, I've never scored that kind of deal, nor have I given it. Well, I might be tempted to hand that out on some old clunker equipment that I don't care about anymore. That's like letting it go out for free.

Or look at it this way:

$58000 (EPIC-M base kit) * 0.01 = $580

$580 * 7 (days in a week) = $4060 / week

$4060 / 3 = $1353.33

There's your "3-day week" daily rate. Hey, maybe that's why I charge $1400/day or $4500 week for my base EPIC-M package. Yep, that's my current rate, y'all can now feel free to under-cut me in a desperate race to the bottom. I send out the EPIC-M kit, full kit with BOMB EVF, REDVOLTS, SIDE HANDLE, it's all there. I also throw in the RED QR plate, a couple RED Bricks and charger, and media. Additional support, aks and lenses are extra.

Going rate for the same package in most major markets that have them right now is about the same. I've seen as cheap as $1000/day for an incomplete M kit and as much as $1800 day when they first started delivering.

My rate is a bit higher for the whole week than 3 x my "day" rate. Which is not uncommon when you get outside of LA/Hollywood or NYC. Renting is also not a primary focus of my business. If you want to see me say "no", just ask me about renting for a month. ;) I guess I would go for it, but it's going to cost you. I would have to turn down quite a bit of work just so I could rent out a camera at some lowly rental rate. That's what rental houses are for.

I also have to agree with David's point about producers making phony or decoy posts for super-low rates. In fact, I've actually seen real evidence of that. At least around here. Also get a laugh when someone calls me up and wants to rent my camera and then tries to haggle me down to nothing. They claim that XXXXX will do it for some unthinkably low price and that they're going to rent from that person if I don't go lower. So I normally just tell them that's fine, go rent from XXXXX. I get a double laugh when I happen to know XXXXX and what they rent for, or happen to know that XXXXX doesn't actually exist.

There are some people in my area that rent basic RED One kits for near nothing. I would never rent from them. If their services are priced that low, they must not be worth anything. In other words, they must not have proper insurance and probably can't provide a solution or support if something goes wrong.

Difference between M and X is negligible. The external body "panels" are machined on the M and the camera is assembled by hand on a manual "assembly line" -- build part of it, then hand it to the guy next to you to do his part. The EPIC-X uses cast body pieces and has some slight differences in how its assembled. It's put together on an automated assembly line -- the changes are there to make automated assembly easier or possible. Once finished the cameras are functionally identical, but the M technically is a bit more rugged on the outside with the machined bits which are stronger than the cast ones. Price difference between M and an EPIC-X bought in Stage-4 next year is negligible. Anyone who is waiting for Stage-4 would be better served to buy an M now, unless they just don't need a camera now or the M kit doesn't fit their needs.

Once X is out in full force, I think rental prices will adjust a bit, but not much. There will always be those who try to lowball the market, but I don't think they will do well in the grand scheme of it all. Kinda like the lowball RED One guys. They're out there, but they don't dictate the market by any means. If you have adequate kits and good service and support, you can rise above the crap rates and junk clients.
 
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