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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic Will Have A Deep Impact On "Film" As An Artform

Couple of points...

1. It is difficult for someone entering the industry to experiment with film. It is very easy to experiment with digital to help learn the craft.

2. Digital won't replace film until it looks better. Top dogs typically won't sacrifice image quality for a few dollars. We think that time has now come. But that is just us.

3. Instant viewing of what you have shot is a huge advantage to a DP. Not having to wait a day (or more) to see and verify your results, strike sets, etc. gives digital a big advantage in this area. We know top guys who are editing their footage and putting on a base grade the same day/night that they shoot RED footage.

4. There can be big advantages to owning your equipment over renting... if you can afford it. Many pay for their equipment many times over before it is necessary to replace with the next big thing. Plus... the advantage of having your gear with you at all times means always being ready if "something comes up"... like an idea or event, or even just leisure experimenting.

5. SSDs are reusable. Whether you need 2 or 200 for your project, at some point they can be wiped and used over and over again. Each time they cost you less.. half again what they cost you the last time you used them.

6. Digital has proven capable to be matched to just about any kind of film stock you can shoot. Film cannot be made to match digital.

7. Film is great. Now digital is too. Lucky us...

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Couple of points...

1. It is difficult for someone entering the industry to experiment with film. It is very easy to experiment with digital to help learn the craft.

2. Digital won't replace film until it looks better. Top dogs typically won't sacrifice image quality for a few dollars. We think that time has now come. But that is just us.

3. Instant viewing of what you have shot is a huge advantage to a DP. Not having to wait a day (or more) to see and verify your results, strike sets, etc. gives digital a big advantage in this area. We know top guys who are editing their footage and putting on a base grade the same day/night that they shoot RED footage.

4. There can be big advantages to owning your equipment over renting... if you can afford it. Many pay for their equipment many times over before it is necessary to replace with the next big thing. Plus... the advantage of having your gear with you at all times means always being ready if "something comes up"... like an idea or event, or even just leisure experimenting.

5. SSDs are reusable. Whether you need 2 or 200 for your project, at some point they can be wiped and used over and over again. Each time they cost you less.. half again what they cost you the last time you used them.

6. Digital has proven capable to be matched to just about any kind of film stock you can shoot. Film cannot be made to match digital.

7. Film is great. Now digital is too. Lucky us...

Jim
Click to expand...

This is one more post that should be a sticky :-)
 
David Rasberry said:
Light is the absolutely essential element of cinematography, regardless of the device or medium you are recording too. Controlling what the camera sees will always be a valuable and essential skill, including how one manipulates light. It is your paint.

One thing I love about Red's approach to digital imaging is that it is a true photographer's instrument. The only things that directly affect what is captured are lighting, aperture, frame rate, and shutter speed. You can't manipulate in post what the camera didn't see.
Click to expand...

Shooting 800 iso or higher changes the light pakage and the way you light your scene. Shoot and light an interior with kodak 250D VS 800D has totally different results on light used and knowledge.

With digital you still will have to light (good for us dp) but you will be able to change color rendition in post, wich is very limited on a contact print. It surely is great to have all under controll while shooting but will we take the time to light and test shoot every source we use? There is no need as we think we have direct results on set.

I think the craft and knowledge will also change and not for the best... The result counts.

Pat
 
Photogenic drawing, Daguerreotypes, Additive color, Subtractive color, salt prints, tintypes, Albumen, Gum bichromate, Cyanotype, Platinum/Palladium, Orthochromatic, Panchromatic, Kodachrome, .... and now Digital.

I've worked with many "alternative" processes, and, today, I make no more (digital) fine prints per year than I did when I used 8X10 film and a darkroom: About ten images per year, tops. I have been working on (conceptually) three of my most recent images for about four months now. If making films just got easier, making great films didn't. The difficult part for aspiring artists/filmmakers? no one can teach them how to love.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I think the truck might be the answer. :001_smile:

I couldn't help myself, even at the 20 mbps upload speed, an hour of REDCODE 42 would take more than 16 hours to upload. Yikes! :crazy:
Click to expand...

Yes. Well, taking our joke entirely too seriously, I looked up what FedEX can do.

I was going to try and be nerd funny by yammering about the latency/bandwidth/capacity triad... but FedEX has sort of made a mockery of it.

I was surprised to see same day cross country shipments. I should pay more attention.

They have latency down to a few hours for one way communication, with pretty huge capacity- and using modern IT practically unlimited bandwidth.

I mean... you can ship up to 200 pounds of media. That's roughly 50 3.5" drives in retail packaging. 150TB- or 134TB (or what the kids call TiB) in RAID 60 configuration.

That's like 20 two hour features and all their camera footage at RC42 at a 20:1 shoot ratio.

So... as it turns out I was busily underestimating the bandwidth of FedEX at the same time I was telling you not to.

OK, so all that is theoretical maximum, blah blah.

Still... Irony.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Yes. Well, taking our joke entirely too seriously, I looked up what FedEX can do.

I was going to try and be nerd funny by yammering about the latency/bandwidth/capacity triad... but FedEX has sort of made a mockery of it.

I was surprised to see same day cross country shipments. I should pay more attention.

They have latency down to a few hours for one way communication, with pretty huge capacity- and using modern IT practically unlimited bandwidth.

I mean... you can ship up to 200 pounds of media. That's roughly 50 3.5" drives in retail packaging. 150TB- or 134TB (or what the kids call TiB) in RAID 60 configuration.

That's like 20 two hour features and all their camera footage at RC42 at a 20:1 shoot ratio.

So... as it turns out I was busily underestimating the bandwidth of FedEX at the same time I was telling you not to.

OK, so all that is theoretical maximum, blah blah.

Still... Irony.
Click to expand...

We'll coin the term "SSN" for it - SuperSneakerNet!! :wink5:
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a truck loaded with hard drives.

Also, many home studio's (like mine) offer much faster Internet connectivity. I have 50Mbps down & 20Mbps upload. Would that change the picture for you?

I am passing around uncompressed 10 bit 1080p today online. Redcode 42 is lightweight by comparison.
Click to expand...

In Dec. a Verizon tech told me they would be 200Mbps capable within a year... And I think that was bidirectional.
 
Jannard said:
Couple of points...

1. It is difficult for someone entering the industry to experiment with film. It is very easy to experiment with digital to help learn the craft.

2. Digital won't replace film until it looks better. Top dogs typically won't sacrifice image quality for a few dollars. We think that time has now come. But that is just us.

3. Instant viewing of what you have shot is a huge advantage to a DP. Not having to wait a day (or more) to see and verify your results, strike sets, etc. gives digital a big advantage in this area. We know top guys who are editing their footage and putting on a base grade the same day/night that they shoot RED footage.

4. There can be big advantages to owning your equipment over renting... if you can afford it. Many pay for their equipment many times over before it is necessary to replace with the next big thing. Plus... the advantage of having your gear with you at all times means always being ready if "something comes up"... like an idea or event, or even just leisure experimenting.

5. SSDs are reusable. Whether you need 2 or 200 for your project, at some point they can be wiped and used over and over again. Each time they cost you less.. half again what they cost you the last time you used them.

6. Digital has proven capable to be matched to just about any kind of film stock you can shoot. Film cannot be made to match digital.

7. Film is great. Now digital is too. Lucky us...

Jim
Click to expand...

Definitely agree on all your points. Specially #1, I think that this is one of the undeniable benefits digital technologies bring to the art of cinema. If it wasn't for digital I probably wouldn't have shot or edited anything to this day and I doubt I would want to be a filmmaker.

But I also do think that it's a double edged sword. Just because everyone can make a movie, doesn't mean everyone should. I think I heard that in Ratatouille.
 
My apartment here in Tokyo has symmetric fibre.... 5-7MB/s (yes, megaBYTES!) up and down.... thrown in free with my rent :D

Life is good!

Cheers from the future,

Paul :D
 
a new form of talibanism

a new form of talibanism

"I should probably start by introducing myself, but I won't.
Epic is visually superior to 35mm film. PERIOD. It has more resolution and in terms of dynamic range and lenses it's just as good or better."
So this young man, who is a student at Dawson College, and makes what he calls animations from still photos taken from flicker ie. http://vimeo.com/17751199, states with the confidence of a prophet that he saw the true light, that there is "Epic is visually superior to 35mm film ... and lenses is as good or better" without probably shooting a roll of film in his life, or even holding an Epic camera in his hands. Last time I shot an RED MX, reproduction of colors was not so close to film. But when you are tying to do something and you know who you are and what you want the small differences in quality of color, texture and organicity matters more that a walker by could ever imagine.
This democratization of the digital cameras is bringing unfortunately also a huge confusion about what is what and who is who.
 
Last edited:
George Chiper said:
"I should probably start by introducing myself, but I won't.
Epic is visually superior to 35mm film. PERIOD. It has more resolution and in terms of dynamic range and lenses it's just as good or better."
So this young man, who is a student at Dawson College, and makes what he calls animations from still photos taken from flicker ie. http://vimeo.com/17751199, states with the confidence of a prophet that he saw the true light, that there is "Epic is visually superior to 35mm film ... and lenses is as good or better" without probably shooting a roll of film in his life, or even holding an Epic camera in his hands. Last time I shot an RED MX, reproduction of colors was not so close to film. But when you are tying to do something and you know who you are and what you want the small differences in quality of color, texture and organicity matters more that a walker by could ever imagine.
This democratization of the digital cameras is bringing unfortunately also a huge confusion about what is what and who is who.
Click to expand...

Haters gonna hate. Nah JK. :smile5: It's totally fine that you disagree with what I'm saying that's what posts are supposed to do share opinion, knowledge and create a discussion.

You're right. I haven't touched a Red camera nor a Film camera in my life. But I have watched films all my life and seeing "The Social Network" in theaters blew me away. I have also shot still photography for about 4 years now and have shot both with a 5D and some old film cameras. I find that using a DSLR for stills is much more natural, simple and powerful than using film. From the information I have learned about shooting with the Red from these forums and all I have read about shooting film in my life, I can see many things that are analogous between [Digital Cinema vs. Film] and [DSLR vs. Film SLR]

Here's a link to my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15492179@N07/

Also don't take anything you see on here too seriously, it's still a forum after all. :cheers2:
 
Daniel Silva said:
Haters gonna hate. Nah JK. :smile5: It's totally fine that you disagree with what I'm saying that's what posts are supposed to do share opinion, knowledge and create a discussion.

You're right. I haven't touched a Red camera nor a Film camera in my life. But I have watched films all my life and seeing "The Social Network" in theaters blew me away. I have also shot still photography for about 4 years now and have shot both with a 5D and some old film cameras. I find that using a DSLR for stills is much more natural, simple and powerful than using film. From the information I have learned about shooting with the Red from these forums and all I have read about shooting film in my life, I can see many things that are analogous between [Digital Cinema vs. Film] and [DSLR vs. Film SLR]

Here's a link to my flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15492179@N07/

Also don't take anything you see on here too seriously, it's still a forum after all. :cheers2:
Click to expand...

Hey Daniel - welcome to the forum. You certainly have "introduced yourself" with a splash. :yesnod:

Don't lose any of that enthusiasm but remember that there are many people here on the forum that have been in the production business for probably 2 or 3 times longer than you have been alive! Don't be too surprised if they don't take your declarations as gospel. :ohmy: Watching films is a great way to build up some awareness. Studying film over the years can be pretty helpful, too. And then, there is no substitute for gaining real knowledge through hands-on experience. And don't worry, I don't imagine anything you say on here will be taken "too seriously." The great thing about being really young is that you have a whole world of knowledge "out there" and a whole lot of years to take it in!
 
Jannard said:
5. SSDs are reusable. Whether you need 2 or 200 for your project, at some point they can be wiped and used over and over again. Each time they cost you less.. half again what they cost you the last time you used them.
Click to expand...

Was looking for input from both Jim and the community. I don't find this statement a practical "reality". True, SSD's are totally reusable and we have been users of tapeless workflows since their entry into the market (Sony, Pana, Red, etc).

Are people really "deleting" (wiping) these cards without archiving them in some fashion...? As an independent, we always shoot everything we can so that it is "evergreen". A reasonable amount of our footage from years back eventually finds its way to broadcast TV on tomorrow's programs.

In the past, we have been archiving that material to physical drives (external, NAS, etc.). But in reality, those drives now stack as high as our rooms full of HDCam tape from years ago. Yes, the SSD's are reusable, but that footage has to go somewhere.

Are we the anomaly or are others doing similar processes...?
 
Your definitely not alone in the archival process. Archiving has always been the hidden cost of a tapeless workflow, and everything we shoot is immediately double-backed up to hard drives, disks, you name it. The costs of on-set expendables over tape and film and post acquisition hasn't disappeared, but it moved to archival. A huge benefit for us though, is that now projects as a whole can be digitally archived, including all the elements in an edit, not just the raw media and final output.
 
Yea but you can fit hours and hours of footy on one little drive. Whats the longest time a HDCam tape can record? My pocket size Glyph (500gb) drives can hold hours and hours of footage. I am getting ready to go on a trip to Canada and I will taking a RED camera, 5D, Pano AG AF 100, Sony HD POV cam and some small drives. If I were to shoot it all on tape I would have to bring boxes and boxes of tape that would be way larger in size and The amount a tape cost per amount of time it holds compare to hard drives doesn't even compare. Right? Maybe im missing something but it doesnt even seem comparable. Let me know your thoughts.
 
dustin lindgren said:
Yea but you can fit hours and hours of footy on one little drive. Whats the longest time a HDCam tape can record? My pocket size Glyph (500gb) drives can hold hours and hours of footage. I am getting ready to go on a trip to Canada and I will taking a RED camera, 5D, Pano AG AF 100, Sony HD POV cam and some small drives. If I were to shoot it all on tape I would have to bring boxes and boxes of tape that would be way larger in size and The amount a tape cost per amount of time it holds compare to hard drives doesn't even compare. Right? Maybe im missing something but it doesnt even seem comparable. Let me know your thoughts.
Click to expand...

Dustin, for us it is comparable when you consider the "cost of failure" of one of the tapeless storage devices. Granted solid state has less of an issue these days.

We were in the Dominican Repbulic and the photographer doing the still shooting had a "card" (still using in the camera) go bad. In that case, you lose everything on the card. They had to reshoot the entire material for the catalogue "twice".

And yes, I remember hand carrying all those 40min HDCAM tapes through 3 airport security scanners to get them back. I winced everytime they went through the x-ray machine.

Our assessment is the same, in which the industry saw a shift in expense -- from tape to archival drives...but on an apples to apples comparison, it works out to about the same (at least for us in broadcast TV).

I will note as a personal preference, I do like tapeless.
 
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