Epic vs Alexa Producer Arguement

[sergio arguello]

Sadly, all this just reminds me of the days when the DP and Director chose the tools to tell the story...prod says i have X amount in the budget and if you stay within it shoot f$%^& 65 for all i care...always have to have their sticky paws in everything!!!

 

[Mark Phelan]

The intangible factor is so strong in all of these decisions, that it matters not which camera does what. A vast majority of the time, the decision has absolutely nothing to do with facts and is purely built on an emotional belief in one's way of thinking. I.E. Alexa is made by ARRI, an established company in the motion picture industry, therefore it is good. Epic is made by some upstart company backed by a guy who made gazillions of dollars selling sunglasses. Insert your own rationale or point of view and the conversation is swayed not by logic or merit, but by whoever was best on their high school debate team.

We would like to think that most decisions are made from lining up the facts, but especially in an emotional and creative environment, I would hazard to say that a majority of decisions are based upon gut feelings, who ya know, or who you want to impress, and have absolutely nothing to do with why Epic is better than Alexa, or vice versa.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Sadly, all this just reminds me of the days when the DP and Director chose the tools to tell the story...prod says i have X amount in the budget and if you stay within it shoot f$%^& 65 for all i care...always have to have their sticky paws in everything!!!

Could not agree more. We've gotten to the point where the corporate culture (culture being an unfortunate name for this) dictates that a producer, who is a financial and logistical overseer by definition, gets to impose his opinion over creative choices, and camera choice, specially in the digital age, has to be one of the more important creative choices when it comes to cinematography. Digital cameras are their own sort of stock, and much like a DP would have chosen Panavision over Arri to be able to use anamorphics, or Arri instead because of size and magazine size, or Kodak over Fuji, each digital camera is a self contained ecosystem that produces noticeably different and unique images, even if you are able to basically match one to another in post. Without even mentioning the important fact that a DP or an operator will tend to gravitate to the camera they know and like best because they are certain of what they can get out of that camera, thus forcing the use of a different camera upon them will likely result in them not achieving their best. I am lucky enough to work for myself and sell most of my work "as is" once it is finished, allowing only for editorial or grading changes, but being able to choose all the gear I use without any interference. But, out of the few times I've done work for hire, a couple of those I indeed had the experience of producers, or worse yet, clients, telling me they wanted a certain piece of gear. I wouldn't have minded had that equipment been able to deliver the very results they had hired me for in the first place, except that it wouldn't, so I tried to explain to them why said gear was not a good choice. Upon their insistence, and their reasoning behind it, which had nothing to do with capabilities but with "so and so spot was shot with that it looks great and I want that look", I kindly declined the job, not because they dared go against me, but simply because I could not guarantee the results of my work if having to use that tool. This has happened to me twice and in both cases the tool in question was a camera, and yes, I am happy with my decision, and no I have not lost the ability to get other jobs or become "unemployable" simply because I dared to disagree with a producer about technical choices that would affect the artistic results of the job, the very reason they were hiring me for in the first place. Saying "yes sir" to the hand that feeds you is always correct, and easy, but that should not make it the norm.

 

[Jay Birch]

This is Reduser Jay. The name alone says it all. Biased? Of course. It would be weird if it wasn't. Red employees and enthusiasts cheering Red? Why not?

Surely i'm not the only person here who uses more than one camera and sees the merits of each?....

Anyway, Alexa.. Epic... If the camera is in the right hands, the results will be superb. Just that bloody tick box chart that winds me up :beer:

 

[Bill Anderson]

Almost every film to date is not future proofed as far as the current war cry goes.

I would say that choosing frame size for future proofing reasons, over aesthetic, is pretty daft. Make a piece that has great resonance within your time - the rest will take care of itself.

Given the huge potential of digital development/science -4K guarantees absolutely nothing. It will likely become as quaint as black and white film stock.

Just do it right.

 

[Brian Robbins]

We are on the same page, Jay. This is like debating if a phillips or a flat head screwdriver is better. Each one has it's place, and at the end of the day they're all just tools.

Surely i'm not the only person here who uses more than one camera and sees the merits of each?....

Anyway, Alexa.. Epic... If the camera is in the right hands, the results will be superb. Just that bloody tick box chart that winds me up :beer:

 

[Björn Benckert]

As a DP you could point out the things that matters for you.
Camera size.
sensor size.
Frame rate.
dynamic range with HDRx-
Higher bitrate.
5k / Higher resolution.
The Camera is module based, so it's better fitted for different tasks.


Then when you made sure the producer understands that you actually demand this camera you need to make sure the walk path is clear... to do so follow those 6 steps:

1. You get a DIT worth the title that does have a red rocket and that cares for quality and does not only want to move alexa proress files from the card to hard drives while he surfs the web.

2. The DIT should do your "on set" preliminary grade and spit out proxy files for offline. preferably you tell him to do DnxHD files since those work in all offline platforms.

3. Your offline editor should know how to export trimmed r3D with tails from his edl/xml in RCXP and he should also make sure all needed cuts are in the folder that he names "TO GRADE" that he leaves together with the XML/ EDL on the source drive.

4. You make sure your colorist is not left in the land of making film transfers. You need somebody that has a mind set for dealing with files more than filmstrips. And if he says that he first want to convert the material to DPX files or such then you find another guy. If that new guy says something in line with, -"nice to grade from the raw files" then you target him.


5. This is important. 5k raw r3d's is great superb file format. But and this is a big BUT if your final delivery is HD or 2k or SD you should interpolate the material to 2k or HD before sending it to the VFX guys, they do not need 5k DPX 16 bit or something as crazy to work form. Since that will increase the post budget with multiples of 10 compared to doing the work in HD. Since if you deliver for the cinema then your masters will be 2k or HD so make sure your colorist delivers in one of those two frame sizes. If there is any cut that need additional zooming or such then you tell the colorist to lay out a version of that specific clip in higher resolution.
Do not zoom and or pan and scan in the grading suite that ruins it for the VFX guys, their 3D tracking does not work and since they can do the pan in scan just as good in the online bay or compositing world, Grading should be grading. Or at least leave an unzoomed version of the cut. Tele cine export 10bit if there is green screen preserve 16bit use dpx with timecode,reel name etc.

6. If you for some reason deviate from the 5 points above and get lost... and things are not going your way.... then you just post your concern on this very forum and you will be back on track before anyone even though there was a problem. This is to me the one biggest reason why I would pic RED before any other camera... I actually never seen a community with such a great crowd and cheering so much knowledge.

If you make sure the 6 steps above is covered. Your producer will save a lot of money using Epic instead of Alexa and I'm sure your picture will look better in the end.

 

[steve green]

The last piece of my particular puzzle is the workflow aspect. Simply put, the producer does the preliminary edit "in house" and then we do color correction and delivery. Will we be able to transcode the R3D files out of RCX to an Avid format also "in house", albeit time consuming. We don't shoot very much footage so a Red Rocket may or not be necessary. My question being can all this happen without the need to add expense by go to a post house before we "finish".

 

[Mike P.]

Personally, on a regular, highly controlled shoot, I think the biggest (and maybe only) advantage is that you could essentially re-do the commercials in post if you needed to at 5k. You have about a 2x lossless zoom/re-framing cushion with 5k (down to ~2.5k) and it's RAW so you can really change the feel of it drastically in post.

That said, you're planning on going to DNxHD/ProRes, which requires transcoding from r3d RAW. And it sounds like you guys are going to shoot the commercials you want right out of the gate (good pre-production), so I doubt you'll actually need to reframe or do massive colour changes. In that respect, it'd be so much easier/faster to just dump pro-res files to your editing bay and start editing. Even with REDrockets you'd still have to convert, which takes time and is an additional hassle/step.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

This is Reduser Jay. The name alone says it all. Biased? Of course. It would be weird if it wasn't. Red employees and enthusiasts cheering Red? Why not?

Sorry, buddy, but don't include me in it, I actually fill offended when some one says that to me.

After over 20 years in Hollywood, and having come form Photography back ground, and have used and played with many cameras, and have learned from some of the very best in the industry, I watched form behind the scenes, not been able to play with the real professional toys as they simply were out of my range... Till 6 years ago, when I finally was in a position to buy what ever I wanted, and started looking at the Sony and Viper, and Dalsa which of course was not for sale, then along came the Red One, and so I waited for it, but things changed for me, and I was never been able to really use that camera, aside from shooting GARBO with Blair Pulsen's #19, and the collaborative SIRENS of TI in Vegas...

Fast forward to today, I have had RED EPIC cameras for over a year, and shot just about anything you can possibly imagine, and talked and introduced the EPIC camera to some of the biggest boys in this industry, I also have run Tests against every single camera available today, including of course the ALEXA, no one currently has a camera that can simply stay next to the RED EPIC... PERIOD, yeah I did used the word PERIOD, and I just did it again...


I can today afford any camera that is in the market, and few that are not in the market yet, which have been offered to me, I OWN RED EPIC cameras because they are the Absolute best there is in the WORLD today, and I want the BEST, and I do have the BEST, because it is, not because I'm a RED FAN BOY or because I'm on REDUSER.

I consider myself a very intelligent person, above average in fact, and I don't like when my Integrity is put to question, and your statement Direct or Indirect does just that.


I know you as a Man of this Industry and I know you also know what you are talking about, but don't say stuff like that, it really PISSES MI OFF!!

NEVER been BIASED never WILL and any one that knows me, knows that I always speak form the heart, I don't think for a second what too say, it comes right out from the core of me, as it represent the truth of what I think!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As a DP you could point out the things that matters for you.
Camera size.
sensor size.
Frame rate.
dynamic range with HDRx-
Higher bitrate.
5k / Higher resolution.
The Camera is module based, so it's better fitted for different tasks.


Then when you made sure the producer understands that you actually demand this camera you need to make sure the walk path is clear... to do so follow those 6 steps:

1. You get a DIT worth the title that does have a red rocket and that cares for quality and does not only want to move alexa proress files from the card to hard drives while he surfs the web.

2. The DIT should do your "on set" preliminary grade and spit out proxy files for offline. preferably you tell him to do DnxHD files since those work in all offline platforms.

3. Your offline editor should know how to export trimmed r3D with tails from his edl/xml in RCXP and he should also make sure all needed cuts are in the folder that he names "TO GRADE" that he leaves together with the XML/ EDL on the source drive.

4. You make sure your colorist is not left in the land of making film transfers. You need somebody that has a mind set for dealing with files more than filmstrips. And if he says that he first want to convert the material to DPX files or such then you find another guy. If that new guy says something in line with, -"nice to grade from the raw files" then you target him.


5. This is important. 5k raw r3d's is great superb file format. But and this is a big BUT if your final delivery is HD or 2k or SD you should interpolate the material to 2k or HD before sending it to the VFX guys, they do not need 5k DPX 16 bit or something as crazy to work form. Since that will increase the post budget with multiples of 10 compared to doing the work in HD. Since if you deliver for the cinema then your masters will be 2k or HD so make sure your colorist delivers in one of those two frame sizes. If there is any cut that need additional zooming or such then you tell the colorist to lay out a version of that specific clip in higher resolution.
Do not zoom and or pan and scan in the grading suite that ruins it for the VFX guys, their 3D tracking does not work and since they can do the pan in scan just as good in the online bay or compositing world, Grading should be grading. Or at least leave an unzoomed version of the cut. Tele cine export 10bit if there is green screen preserve 16bit use dpx with timecode,reel name etc.

6. If you for some reason deviate from the 5 points above and get lost... and things are not going your way.... then you just post your concern on this very forum and you will be back on track before anyone even though there was a problem. This is to me the one biggest reason why I would pic RED before any other camera... I actually never seen a community with such a great crowd and cheering so much knowledge.

If you make sure the 6 steps above is covered. Your producer will save a lot of money using Epic instead of Alexa and I'm sure your picture will look better in the end.

Nice Bjørn!

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Correction

Correction

:thumbsup:

Sorry, buddy, but don't include me in it, I actually fill offended when some one says that to me.

After over 20 years in Hollywood, and having come form Photography back ground, and have used and played with many cameras, and have learned from some of the very best in the industry, I watched form behind the scenes, not been able to play with the real professional toys as they simply were out of my range... Till 6 years ago, when I finally was in a position to buy what ever I wanted, and started looking at the Sony and Viper, and Dalsa which of course was not for sale, then along came the Red One, and so I waited for it, but things changed for me, and I was never been able to really use that camera, aside from shooting GARBO with Blair Pulsen's #19, and the collaborative SIRENS of TI in Vegas...

Fast forward to today, I have had RED EPIC cameras for over a year, and shot just about anything you can possibly imagine, and talked and introduced the EPIC camera to some of the biggest boys in this industry, I also have run Tests against every single camera available today, including of course the ALEXA, no one currently has a camera that can simply stay next to the RED EPIC... PERIOD, yeah I did used the word PERIOD, and I just did it again...


I can today afford any camera that is in the market, and few that are not in the market yet, which have been offered to me, I OWN RED EPIC cameras because they are the Absolute best there is in the WORLD today, and I want the BEST, and I do have the BEST, because it is, not because I'm a RED FAN BOY or because I'm on REDUSER.

I consider myself a very intelligent person, above average in fact, and I don't like when my Integrity is put to question, and your statement Direct or Indirect does just that.


I know you as a Man of this Industry and I know you also know what you are talking about, but don't say stuff like that, it really PISSES MI OFF!!

NEVER been BIASED never WILL and any one that knows me, knows that I always speak form the heart, I don't think for a second what too say, it comes right out from the core of me, as it represent the truth of what I think!

OK my posts did not include Ketch. He's not a Red fan boy......not at all:thumbsup:

 

[Gunleik Groven]

:thumbsup:

OK my posts did not include Ketch. He's not a Red fan boy......not at all:thumbsup:

We all knw that!

 

[Brad Webb]

As a DP you could point out the things that matters for you.
Camera size.
sensor size.
Frame rate.
dynamic range with HDRx-
Higher bitrate.
5k / Higher resolution.
The Camera is module based, so it's better fitted for different tasks.


Then when you made sure the producer understands that you actually demand this camera you need to make sure the walk path is clear... to do so follow those 6 steps:

1. You get a DIT worth the title that does have a red rocket and that cares for quality and does not only want to move alexa proress files from the card to hard drives while he surfs the web.

2. The DIT should do your "on set" preliminary grade and spit out proxy files for offline. preferably you tell him to do DnxHD files since those work in all offline platforms.

3. Your offline editor should know how to export trimmed r3D with tails from his edl/xml in RCXP and he should also make sure all needed cuts are in the folder that he names "TO GRADE" that he leaves together with the XML/ EDL on the source drive.

4. You make sure your colorist is not left in the land of making film transfers. You need somebody that has a mind set for dealing with files more than filmstrips. And if he says that he first want to convert the material to DPX files or such then you find another guy. If that new guy says something in line with, -"nice to grade from the raw files" then you target him.


5. This is important. 5k raw r3d's is great superb file format. But and this is a big BUT if your final delivery is HD or 2k or SD you should interpolate the material to 2k or HD before sending it to the VFX guys, they do not need 5k DPX 16 bit or something as crazy to work form. Since that will increase the post budget with multiples of 10 compared to doing the work in HD. Since if you deliver for the cinema then your masters will be 2k or HD so make sure your colorist delivers in one of those two frame sizes. If there is any cut that need additional zooming or such then you tell the colorist to lay out a version of that specific clip in higher resolution.
Do not zoom and or pan and scan in the grading suite that ruins it for the VFX guys, their 3D tracking does not work and since they can do the pan in scan just as good in the online bay or compositing world, Grading should be grading. Or at least leave an unzoomed version of the cut. Tele cine export 10bit if there is green screen preserve 16bit use dpx with timecode,reel name etc.

6. If you for some reason deviate from the 5 points above and get lost... and things are not going your way.... then you just post your concern on this very forum and you will be back on track before anyone even though there was a problem. This is to me the one biggest reason why I would pic RED before any other camera... I actually never seen a community with such a great crowd and cheering so much knowledge.

If you make sure the 6 steps above is covered. Your producer will save a lot of money using Epic instead of Alexa and I'm sure your picture will look better in the end.

I'm making this into a poster and framing it on my wall.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

:thumbsup:

OK my posts did not include Ketch. He's not a Red fan boy......not at all:thumbsup:

Admiring a company form bringing the best product this industry has ever seen and been a fan boy are two different things... You got it wrong other wise.

BTW, I wrote out of my heart, might seem harsh now, but I meant every word, possibly written without so many caps, but my pint stands.

When I'm asked about why I chose RED Epic, I give my honest and knowledgeable opinion, with details, I don't ever tell them, oh I chose RED because I'm a fan boy... One is an intelligent choice made considering carefully what is available in this market, the other would be a stupid choice made by fanboysm (don't think this is a word but I'll use it any ways)...

 

[steve green]

As a DP you could point out the things that matters for you.
Camera size.
sensor size.
Frame rate.
dynamic range with HDRx-
Higher bitrate.
5k / Higher resolution.
The Camera is module based, so it's better fitted for different tasks.


Then when you made sure the producer understands that you actually demand this camera you need to make sure the walk path is clear... to do so follow those 6 steps:

1. You get a DIT worth the title that does have a red rocket and that cares for quality and does not only want to move alexa proress files from the card to hard drives while he surfs the web.

2. The DIT should do your "on set" preliminary grade and spit out proxy files for offline. preferably you tell him to do DnxHD files since those work in all offline platforms.

3. Your offline editor should know how to export trimmed r3D with tails from his edl/xml in RCXP and he should also make sure all needed cuts are in the folder that he names "TO GRADE" that he leaves together with the XML/ EDL on the source drive.

4. You make sure your colorist is not left in the land of making film transfers. You need somebody that has a mind set for dealing with files more than filmstrips. And if he says that he first want to convert the material to DPX files or such then you find another guy. If that new guy says something in line with, -"nice to grade from the raw files" then you target him.


5. This is important. 5k raw r3d's is great superb file format. But and this is a big BUT if your final delivery is HD or 2k or SD you should interpolate the material to 2k or HD before sending it to the VFX guys, they do not need 5k DPX 16 bit or something as crazy to work form. Since that will increase the post budget with multiples of 10 compared to doing the work in HD. Since if you deliver for the cinema then your masters will be 2k or HD so make sure your colorist delivers in one of those two frame sizes. If there is any cut that need additional zooming or such then you tell the colorist to lay out a version of that specific clip in higher resolution.
Do not zoom and or pan and scan in the grading suite that ruins it for the VFX guys, their 3D tracking does not work and since they can do the pan in scan just as good in the online bay or compositing world, Grading should be grading. Or at least leave an unzoomed version of the cut. Tele cine export 10bit if there is green screen preserve 16bit use dpx with timecode,reel name etc.

6. If you for some reason deviate from the 5 points above and get lost... and things are not going your way.... then you just post your concern on this very forum and you will be back on track before anyone even though there was a problem. This is to me the one biggest reason why I would pic RED before any other camera... I actually never seen a community with such a great crowd and cheering so much knowledge.

If you make sure the 6 steps above is covered. Your producer will save a lot of money using Epic instead of Alexa and I'm sure your picture will look better in the end.

Now that's the "road map" we need to follow. That's the most succinct explanation of Epic workflow I've ever seen. Having said that, how do we get around number one and two (having a DIT). And what are we giving up if we do eliminate the DIT. In the past that's not a position on our camera crew and with the travel involved it'll be an issue. Can we transcode (after the shoot) and have a basic 709 type LUT added to the DNX files with which to edit with?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I can today afford any camera that is in the market, and few that are not in the market yet, which have been offered to me, I OWN RED EPIC cameras because they are the Absolute best there is in the WORLD today, and I want the BEST, and I do have the BEST, because it is, not because I'm a RED FAN BOY or because I'm on REDUSER.

You're discrediting people's opinions though. Someone might say "I'm an OIL PAINT FAN BOY BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST". But that ignores that someone might like a different aesthetic. I still like film the best, hate the workflow but love the picture. So does that mean film is "the BEST" no.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

You're discrediting people's opinions though. Someone might say "I'm an OIL PAINT FAN BOY BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST". But that ignores that someone might like a different aesthetic. I still like film the best, hate the workflow but love the picture. So does that mean film is "the BEST" no.

No, as the way was intended by jacek, (optitek) was that in here because we are Fan boys, we will put down any other camera put against Epic, which would imply that we are blind or stupid, or that no matter how bad what we have is, we still make it believe is the best even if it was not, just because we are fan boys, that is what it is to me, and why I replied the way I replied.


And yes normally been a Fan of some one or something means that you liked it and for this you are a fan of it, but as it was intended here was not in the Benin purpose.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Incorrect!!!

Incorrect!!!

No, as the way was intended by jacek, (optitek) was that in here because we are Fan boys, .........

This statement couldn't be further from the truth Ketch, little insecure there- aren't we...:beer:

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Um, 2880 across. - quote from Arri website: "16:9 sensor mode: 2880 x 1620 for ARRIRAW, 2880 x 1620 down sampled to 1920 x 1080 for HD video and ProRes 4:3 sensor mode: 2880 x 2160 for ARRIRAW, 2880 x 2160 down sampled to 1440 x 1080 (pillar box) for monitoring in EVF-1 and HD video (MON OUT only)"

Measured resolution will of course be less.

Graeme

what is measured resolution for Epic?