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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic vs 5D3 Raw Side by Side

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MichaelJQuill said:
Nick,

Also, will your opinion change when the 5D3 becomes rock solid, reliability wise? Can you give us links to the videos on the jobs you've done for $20k where you've delivered in 4K? Impressing the client with a big camera is sometimes an important factor, but for sake of conversation, I'm only interested in final image quality (not pecker waving considerations).

Mike
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Mike, if the 5D RAW became reliable, then sure I'd consider it as a B-Cam, of course. Every tool as it's place.

But on our jobs, we will continue to rely on 4k, bare minimum.

The spot below is an example of a job where we depended on the 4K files to deliver and finish (we ended up having to "crop in" up to 400% to create new closeups the client requested after the fact...when we were in edit). If we had shot 1080, we could never have delivered (the closeups would have been sub-SD resolution).

Instead, our 4K workflow not only helped save the day, it helped us wow a client we've since kept and continued to work with all year. So our reasons for investing in 4K are not simply to "future proof". 4k is how we are maximizing our workflow right now in the present.

 
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I just think it's interesting that I just got back from two Fiat shoots where we were shooting Scarlet, 5D3 and C100, and besides some minor contrast and saturation in camera settings, I could not really tell the difference between footage when I connected the cameras to an HD tv via hdmi cable. For $20-30k+ more, I would hope that a RED image would put these other cameras to shame. The reality is that I can't tell the difference. Why is that?

Mike
 
I have shot on DSLR's for years. I love my 7Ds but when I got my RED Scarlet (that now is a Epic) I knew I was never going back!!! Plus when u are on a set and using a RED vs. a DSLR u feel better :) Plus u get more money for renting it out.
 
MichaelJQuill said:
I just think it's interesting that I just got back from two Fiat shoots where we were shooting Scarlet, 5D3 and C100, and besides some minor contrast and saturation in camera settings, I could not really tell the difference between footage when I connected the cameras to an HD tv via hdmi cable. For $20-30k+ more, I would hope that a RED image would put these other cameras to shame. The reality is that I can't tell the difference. Why is that?

Mike
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Mike it sounds like you've made up your mind! Unless your asking us to convince you otherwise, I think you've already made a decision about what is...and is not... worth your investment.

I personally have no interest in a RAW 5D, because my clients only understand RED & Alexa. They would see a 5D and ask to trim the budget instantly, so for me it's an instant revenue drain. But again...for side and personal jobs, I can see it being fantastic.
 
MichaelJQuill said:
The reality is that I can't tell the difference. Why is that?
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No offense, but if you are asking these questions you need to look more at why you have selected a 4K camera. Also you should likely consider how you're finishing your images in post.

The main points, which have already been mentioned here, really come down to how critical you are over your image and what quality control you're after on the captured and finished image.
 
Neil,

Your argument has nothing to do with final image quality, which is what I'd like to limit this conversation to. Sure, a RED makes you feel like more of a pro filmmaker, but if the image looks identical in the final outcome, why did you spend all that extra $?

Mike
 
Phil,

I'm super critical over my final image. But dude, c'mon, I think you're splitting hairs if you think there's an image quality difference between those two shots of the abandoned house.

Mike
 
In my experience when we are a set and using a wide variety of cameras. The one that outshines them all when it comes to color correction/making color grading in post is RED. We had a RED with 2 DSLR cams as b and c. The RED was the clear winner. U forget that DSLRs have aliasing issues and I like 5k images way better than 1080p for post work.
 
MichaelJQuill said:
Sure, a RED makes you feel like more of a pro filmmaker, but if the image looks identical in the final outcome, why did you spend all that extra $?
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If the images were identical in "all ways" we would actually be having a really interesting discussion.

My main issues is this is a horrible way to shoot a test. F/23 is super weird. Change the shutter speed and hit f/5-8 for the test if you don't have an ND handy. Also, there's some magnification difference in here anyways. Anywho, with all those crazy variables at play here I still see this:

 
OK, and these punch ins looks identical to me...
 
I should say, click on the image and it will open in a new window as Reduser scales images above a certain dimension.
 
This is a healthy "conversation" guys, keep fighting the good fight, we're really getting somewhere here.
 
Phil,

I definitely see the punch in resolution difference at 4k.

Mike
 
If YOU don't perceive there to be any difference in what the two cameras deliver, then YOU should definitely not spend the extra money.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
If YOU don't perceive there to be any difference in what the two cameras deliver, then YOU should definitely not spend the extra money.
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Terry, critically explain to me the differences in these two images (without typing in condescending caps).

Mike
 
MichaelJQuill said:
Chad,

Yes, you made a car analogy, but you did not give me a reason why someone should drop $30k+ more on an Epic.

Mike
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May i make a suggestion that you dont spend 30k and stay right where you are. If your happy with the images your getting then were happy to have you stay in DSLR land where you belong.
 
Interesting. I just did some scaling tests. Resizing both images somewhere around 1000-1100 pixels wide is where I can't totally see the difference via bicubic scaling. I see it at 1280 pixels wide though.
 
sergio arguello said:
May i make a suggestion that you dont spend 30k and stay right where you are. If your happy with the images your getting then were happy to have you stay in DSLR land where you belong.
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You should preview Michael's work before making comments like that. He obviously works with many different formats, and is incredibly talented. Unfortunately his film degree also came with a philosophy degree, so he's equally good at trying to answer all the worlds most difficult questions :)
 
Not my job. This is a place I never go. And the caps aren't condescending, they are purely for emphasis. It's simple, if I believe I am getting better footage when I shoot Scarlet or Epic, then I am comfortable with the extra expenditure. If I don't believe such a thing, then I am in agreement with you - why spend the extra?

But I am not going to go back and forth over one or two images. If you don't think it is wise to spend the money, then don't. Very simple.
 
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