Epic vs 5D3 Raw Side by Side

[Bob Minervini]

I'd stick with the 5D3 since you have know issues with it.

Like Im sticking with the RED EPIC.... for the same reason.

so much bla, bla, bla, bla... thank god there is Toia, my personal hero, a sage and a great dop

 

[David Rasberry]

A main reason for an Epic beyond the obvious differences in performance features IMO would be workflow and production efficiency for projects with significant budgets. At certain levels of work, production efficiency can easily justify the cost difference. The other issue, which so far hasn't been settled is how reliable will raw on the Canon be for continuous day by day onset production schedules for a busy shooter.

For someone like Mr. Toia, efficiency, predictability, and reliability more than outweigh the cost difference not even considering IQ.

 

[Emanuel A.]

OK, and these punch ins looks identical to me...

Then you are absolutly blind.

Mike,

I guess here's why the words of Bryan... (another 5K's crop made some days ago from the original footage posted in these same boards by Luke Neumann) :

I also guess there are no doubts which is which.

EPIC's had to also be a bit upsampled: 9%, so 18% in both H & V directions (larger equivalent than UHD to 4K [BMPC vs 1DC or Scarlet-X] or 1080p to 2K) in order to match both crops once they have no the same framing natively, they give a different size.

E.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I agree with Phil... before this thread to have opened and already after this video to have been available on youtube first, later gone, now available again but on vimeo:

(...)

There is something wacky going on. According to that video, 5D has better DR, than Scarlet. It just can't be. Clearly, whoever was doing the grading goofed up.

This test is gone from vimeo too, now.

First, it had been posted by this user here on youtube -- it looks like he/she has a Scarlet from other videos posted there earlier in the past:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ezbzpop/videos?flow=grid&view=0

 

[Björn Benckert]

Nick,

I hear your points, but at the end of the day, if you can't tell the difference between an image coming off an Epic and a 5D3, don't you have to wonder where all that money went?

Mike

Well the difference is quite huge. But if you try to create shots where the cameras look about the same then thats no problem. Try doing chromakey work with 5k epic 3:1 downscaled to HD and then try key the same shot from the 5d raw... Then the difference is pretty much make or break. For me I do not even need to go to UHD to compare, As the differences are huge even in downscale to 1920. But offcourse you can match certain shot no problem. But it's the more difficult onces that kind of makes the more expansive epic worth it's costs. But again if you do car analogy my beach buggy is just as good as my hummer for going from a to b. But when the distance increase and the difficulty of travel, well then the hummer is a better choice, no doubt. The times I just go down to the beach to surf and have some fun then the beach buggy works really nice I do not even care if it's blown full of sand and get rust all over as it does not cost that much, and when it breaks I can pic up a new one. In this analogy the beach buggy with a hacked VW engine is the 5D with landtern... just to make things clear.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Well, that was an interesting discussion (yes, I do read all posts before I give my opinion). I'm surprised at some of the poor reasoning employed by one or two members here. Camera choice is one's own business, but be honest about it, if only with oneself.

Here's another angle: if you had to shoot stills, would you choose the 5D3 or the Scarlet? Budget aside, I'd choose the Scarlet. BTW I don't own a DSLR or a RED and my main digital camera is a Sony NEX. For what I shoot the NEX is superior to a DSLR. When I feel like spending some real money, I'll keep an open mind and hopefully make the right compromises.

Yes, I was quite supriced when we needed to shoot two cameras side by side and only needed a frame from the second camera, so we set up with the epic and a 550D. And I figured the pictures would be quite easy to match etc. But that was not the case, it was not the lens of the 550D and we had it in raw etc. Its actually so that the MX sensor is so good so I actually forgot how shitty the canons actually are. I wish I keept the stills to show but the difference in the two are so big that I just figure I will never use a slr for stills as long as I have the epic within reach.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I don't know where this guy got this video but i shot it, and i took it down from youtube because it's not really accurate, i rushed to make my opinion, but a few hours later i shot another test paying more attention to the details and settings , and then another one, an so on,
it took me a week (yeah, i am slow) to form my opinion,
ML is amazing, if you don't have an access to a real camera.

So, are you the native (youtube) poster? What exactly settings did you use?

 

[Peter Majtan]

Here is another PoV from my colorist "other" half:

Over the last three years I have graded several projects that had mixed RED and HDSLR footage. In order to keep the consistency of a sequence it was always the RED footage that had to be (de)graded to mach the Canon's, not the other way round. And yes - I can (de)grade any RED footage to match exactly the Canon footage shot in the same conditions. Just don't ask me to do it the other way round... ;o)

:sifone: Peter

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

I'm bored.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I own several of both of these models of the manufacturers cameras. They are both great at what they do, but they are both completely different, not remotely similar. What are we going on about here....

 

[paul schefz]

Here is another PoV from my colorist "other" half:

Over the last three years I have graded several projects that had mixed RED and HDSLR footage. In order to keep the consistency of a sequence it was always the RED footage that had to be (de)graded to mach the Canon's, not the other way round. And yes - I can (de)grade any RED footage to match exactly the Canon footage shot in the same conditions. Just don't ask me to do it the other way round... ;o)

:sifone: Peter

But I am sure they have not graded any raw footage from the 5dIII...

 

[Emanuel A.]

Pichi,

The images look identical, DR wise. Tell me why it's worth spending $30k+ more on an Epic.

Mike

If you'll go under 1080p delivery, probably it is not. It depends on your pay off. None the less, here is where discoveries like this RAW hack can fully serve and save much more gear investment at least on expensive insurance fees

 

[Björn Benckert]

Paul,

Epic and Scarlet are exactly the same, image wise (minus the field of view difference). Don't see your distinction.

Mike

you forgot the much higher data rate of the epic that allows 5k at 3:1

 

[dio Zafi]

would I use this camera instead of my epic NO!
am I impressed with the video from a still camera YES!

 

[Peer Landa]

If I'm only concerned with final image quality, someone tell me why it's worth spending $30k+ more on an Epic when I can get the exact same image on a 5D3?

This reasoning reminds me a bit of the early 90s when quite a few were perplexed to why we started developing tools for 24bit/96kHz audio. Their argument back then was that the 24/96 was just an expensive fad "since no one could possibly hear the difference between it and the established 16/48 standard". I.e., not realizing how useful such dense & linear material would be in post processing. The same goes for video shot at 5K -- in post we'll have more leverage to crop, zoom and push it beyond any 2K footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p.


-- peer

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If you'll go under 1080p delivery, probably it is not. It depends on your pay off. None the less, here is where discoveries like this RAW hack can fully serve and save much more gear investment at least on expensive insurance fees

If your standards are high, it's worth it, if you have low standards and cheap clients with no appreciation for quality and subtlety then nothing that adds quality is worth it. Just go with whatever is fastest and cheapest, and stay in the bottom end of the lower-middle class for the rest of your life, making $300 a day shooting corporates.

People at the top of any field just work with whatever is best, period.

 

[Emanuel A.]

If your standards are high, it's worth it, if you have low standards and cheap clients with no appreciation for quality and subtlety then nothing that adds quality is worth it. Just go with whatever is fastest and cheapest, and stay in the bottom end of the lower-middle class for the rest of your life, making $300 a day shooting corporates.

People at the top of any field just work with whatever is best, period.

The point is what your quality/standards is/are...

If your paramount is hollywood, EPIC makes all the sense. But believe me, you'll need to low the quality of your perceived communication once general audiences are not able to even discuss complex art form other than a good snap.

If people more like me, they can get the best snap in front of the screen along explosions crossing the speakers in the movie theater... then I guess you can go safe with any device able to excel the visual communication you intend to.

Generally, people of this sort don't sleep during a Goddard's screening but they are more focused in the amount to be inscribed in the final bill/budget.

Because art form producers of this kind know they are no interested to low the level of their work in order to comprehend a larger audience.

...

Emanuel

 

[Nick Morrison]

If your standards are high, it's worth it, if you have low standards and cheap clients with no appreciation for quality and subtlety then nothing that adds quality is worth it. Just go with whatever is fastest and cheapest, and stay in the bottom end of the lower-middle class for the rest of your life, making $300 a day shooting corporates.

People at the top of any field just work with whatever is best, period.

I can certainly agree that none of our clients are willing to shell out $20k+ for even a simple shoot if they see a 5D on set. They are paying real money, and expect the best tools on set. Especially when the camera is, overall, such a SMALL part of the budget. Why skimp? It's so EASY to shoot 4K raw at this point. Why RISK IT ALL on a new, unproven technology that doesn't cost much. I'm not saying the 5D Raw isn't great, I'm sure it is...or will be.

But clients with real money expect real cameras that are proven. If they are going to bring in a NETWORK STAR to be interviewed, they are TRUSTING YOU. They don't want ANY FUCKUPS, and they are paying for the best. All our clients are BROADCAST and understand RED workflow. They know that the 4K workflow means we can RE-FRAME and BLOW-UP shots later in post. Believe me - they have asked for this numerous times. They are not stupid. I can't imagine if I told them the following: "Sorry, I cheapened out, used the new, experimental 5D raw camera, but charged you the same...and oh...NO...I can't blow that shot up for you, cuz it's not 4K. Just 1080p. You're gunna hire us next time right?". CLICK.

To me, its horses for courses. The 5D RAW will be amazing at the things it can do better than any other camera - its LIGHT WEIGHT, FULL FRAME, and RAW. If I need to strap a raw camera to a pole, a helmet, or under a car, or on an actor's chest, or on a gun, or ontop of an Epic, or just need a B or C cam..then YES!!). But as my MAIN CAMERA, that I am trusting with my career and my future, then I want a proven cinema camera that my clients can TRUST, and that I know...when shit is hitting the fan...will be there for me. I need 4K RAW files to save our ass sometimes in post. We do our own editorial (that's our background), and we don't want an fuckups in post. My A-CAM has to be BOSS. The rest, I can live with some experimentation.

If you are willing to risk your carrear on new unproven tech, then god speed. You have more balls than I do. I personally, would never dream of it, but then again...I just can't fucking afford to. My clients don't forgive. And why should they? One mistake, and your fucked. Especially if it's a big one. So for me, it's go big or go home. Otherwise why go into this business, if you are not going to jump in cock first?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This thread sucks.

It's pretty simple to understand... If a hacked 5D3 does everything YOU need for YOUR projects on YOUR budget, then that is farking awesome for YOU. It's just a tool. EPIC is just a tool, so is Scarlet, the RED One, the Alexa, F65, GoPro, etc...

Time to move on...