EPIC-S...

[James B]

Lets get together

Lets get together

I love the passion everyone here has for making films, as demonstrated recently with this discussion about what is more important, which in my simplistic mind I see in terms of "is it the paint or the painting". For me, with limited money, I must focus a lot more on the story, cause I can afford the time, but unfortunately not the top gear and large crews. This leads me onto thinking ...

I live in a beautiful yet relatively remote part of the world ( Tasmania ), so access to gear and people is very limited, but the scenery is spectacular and of course much cheaper filming here then in a big city.
So it occurs to me, would it work if a few of us poor story film makers got together and bought some top gear, like an Epic-X.
With my weekend or spread out projects and the random weather, renting would still be around $100k for my typical scripts, but $50k is still out of reach for a camera etc.

My idea for today ( I have lots of ideas and bear in mind that only some turn out to be any good ), if there is anyone else passionate about making some films who happens to live near by and would be interested in sharing a great camera, please phone me and lets work it out the detail. What a lovely miracle that would be !

James Burton

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I seem to go against the grain with a lot of "filmmakers" but I absolutely love Michael Bay and his work. The majority of people that frown on Bay probably never even saw any of his films. Personally, I'd say the man is a genius. And contrary to what most people think and how the media makes him out to be, he's a great guy.

 

[Tobias Ashenheim]

someone should try and steer back round to Epic S within these kinda comments or this thread will become redundant! but it is important, as i guess an Epic S type camera, from its very nature, will tend to raise these kind of debates. it is interesting what everyone has to say.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Agreed. Epic-S is still gonna be one heck of a camera. I'd wanna know what current features are gonna be. "Half of Epic-X" is what we seem to hear. So 5K at 60fps (30fps HDRx), 2K at 150fps? or was it 120fps? And then some less compression modes, not really sure what the state of that will be. If we still have 5:1 or even 6:1 we're good.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Just a hunch:
upon release, Epic S will be one of the most advanced digital acquisition cameras in the world. I would go as far as to say that any "differences in quality" between it and X will not hobble even the most ambitious filmmaker, and that the respective performances will likely be described as "fabulous" and "more fabulous". ( :

 

[Andrew Huse]

Just a hunch:
upon release, Epic S will be one of the most advanced digital acquisition cameras in the world. I would go as far as to say that any "differences in quality" between it and X will not hobble even the most ambitious filmmaker, and that the respective performances will likely be described as "fabulous" and "more fabulous". ( :

If the R1-MysteriumX was used for Social Network, Pirates, etc., and the quality was incredible, it is safe to say at this point that Epic-S will be even more incredible with 6:1 REDCODE.

I personally landed on 5:1 as my pick... but yesterday switched to 6:1. I'm sure everyone will have a favorite given different conditions.

Jim

I highly doubt there will be any visual differences between 5:1 and 6:1 when you compare the X and S. Just look at the graph y=√X. The theoretical difference in quality between, say, REDCODE 100:1 and 20:1 are HUGE! But as the graph reaches its limit, 7.5:1, 6:1, 5:1, 4:1, 3:1 and 2.5:1 begin to all look the same.

Therefore, the Epic-S will be capable of shooting Oscar-worthy feature films. I feel like overcrank shots are used very rarely, in scenes that require a visual impact to mark a decisive moment of the story. Not all films even utilize slow motion. (No Country for Old Men?) If you got to have slow motion...rent an Epic-X and shoot your 120p shot and be done with it. 98% of the film is probably going to be 24p anyway.

I feel like the Epic-X is great for commercial work which uses overcranking much more. But for narrative film the Epic-S is perfect...Also there is no need to shoot a narrative film at 3:1 - (But I know some filmmakers are going to do it anyway...)

For the price and performance, the Epic-S is going to be the most fabulous piece of cinematic machinery ever designed.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I seem to go against the grain with a lot of "filmmakers" but I absolutely love Michael Bay and his work. The majority of people that frown on Bay probably never even saw any of his films. Personally, I'd say the man is a genius. And contrary to what most people think and how the media makes him out to be, he's a great guy.

Agreed on both counts. It doesn't take much insight to see that his screaming fits are displays of passion. Although I think that *some* of his scripts are pretty awful, in many ways he is the very top of the pyramid.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Following a prioritized list of how much can this thing suck before it fails doesn't seem like a very good approach. This should not be a race to the bottom. It all has to be good. "We are only as strong as our weakest link." is a better mantra to follow. If there is one thing that indie Directors really need to work on it is the drama... the acting, IMHO. I've seen lots of half-assed shitty indies and while some rock the tech and others have a passable story fairly well told they all have one thing in common: Shitty performances.

While a technical problem may rest in the hands of an individual, performances are crafted by at least three; the Actor, Director AND the Editor. Since performance is key and has three or more points of failure, I say it is PERFORMANCE that requires most of our care, effort and attention. Why is it that so many indie directors have such a lack of respect for the craft of acting? Why do so many take casting so lightly? NO your sweet looking girlfriend can NOT have the part, we need an actual actress thank you very much.

What is the percentage of indie/student shows you worked on that actually rehearsed the actors? This isn't directed solely at Gavin, I mean any of us. No a read through does not count as rehearsal. How many... 1%?

Sorry Gavin, I can't place acting #3 of 4. just my 2¢ soapbox. Sorry it's OT.

It all has to be good, A-Z. Higher end people do not say "any old camera will do", by any means, but they also do not stop there. I think many indies are indies because they were rejected by the higher-end gate-keepers. Sometimes this was not fair, sometimes this very much was. Some are also indies because the gatekeepers did not reject them outright, but told them they needed to be more patient. They simply did not have enough of a well-rounded set of skills yet. This is often fair, and why so many indies lack knowledge in basic areas and this makes their film fall down in a key area like acting.

 

[Joe Carney]

sorry cant resist..how come you say F3 is much more indie friendly??? Joking right when you see red company wants money for firmware update? dont understand people why they purchase F3...

Simple answer, they exist and the Epic-s and Scarlett are still prototypes. We also keep getting not so subtle hints about moving away from the low end. Already people on this board are dissing the Epic-S before it ships because it's not upgradable.

Sergio speaks for a lot of people. But it's amazing how many don't get what he is saying. He is not being anti Red, he is frustrated he can't get the affordable quality he thought would be here by now. Telling him to uproot and move somewhere else is ludicrus. Giving lectures on lenses and script and what not, misses the point. He is not someone just getting in to movie making.

Make fun of Sony all you want. They are shipping product, Red is not. It will be interesting what happens if the F65 ships before the Epic-x/s do in quantity.
A LOT of people are moving on to the F3/FS100/AF100 route because of years of waiting for Red. Throw all the snarky, snide, "quality" arguments you want, it no longer makes a difference to them. Insults and inuendo will be ignored. They are too busy making movies.
Not a rant, just an observation.
Like Sergio, I want to own. I want to grab my camera, jump in my truck and go and shoot something on a whim. One that doesn't want to revolve around a rental companies business hours. Maybe not "professional enough" for some here, but that is just as important as putting together a production to me.
Someday it will happen with a Scarlett or Epic-S. Or not.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

If you got to have slow motion...rent an Epic-X and shoot your 120p shot and be done with it. 98% of the film is probably going to be 24p anyway.

Are you saying Epic-S won't be good for slowmo or that the compression will suffer when doing slowmo with Epic-S? I tend to do alot of slowmo but have gotten by up to 60fps. Epic-S should be capable of 5K at 60fps and 2K at at least 120fps. Are there issues with shooting that high on the Epic-S that I am unaware of?

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Simple answer, they exist and the Epic-s and Scarlett are still prototypes. We also keep getting not so subtle hints about moving away from the low end. Already people on this board are dissing the Epic-S before it ships because it's not upgradable.

Sergio speaks for a lot of people. But it's amazing how many don't get what he is saying. He is not being anti Red, he is frustrated he can't get the affordable quality he thought would be here by now. Telling him to uproot and move somewhere else is ludicrus. Giving lectures on lenses and script and what not, misses the point. He is not someone just getting in to movie making.

Make fun of Sony all you want. They are shipping product, Red is not. It will be interesting what happens if the F65 ships before the Epic-x/s do in quantity.
A LOT of people are moving on to the F3/FS100/AF100 route because of years of waiting for Red. Throw all the snarky, snide, "quality" arguments you want, it no longer makes a difference to them. Insults and inuendo will be ignored. They are too busy making movies.
Not a rant, just an observation.
Like Sergio, I want to own. I want to grab my camera, jump in my truck and go and shoot something on a whim. One that doesn't want to revolve around a rental companies business hours. Maybe not "professional enough" for some here, but that is just as important as putting together a production to me.
Someday it will happen with a Scarlett or Epic-S. Or not.

I agree with this 100% and will be making the same move in the fall if I still can't get my hands on a camera. My plan is still to get a RED but it may take longer because I also don't want to have to wait and go out to shoot or delay my plans/ideas around when a product is released.

 

[Andrew Huse]

Are you saying Epic-S won't be good for slowmo or that the compression will suffer when doing slowmo with Epic-S? I tend to do alot of slowmo but have gotten by up to 60fps. Epic-S should be capable of 5K at 60fps and 2K at at least 120fps. Are there issues with shooting that high on the Epic-S that I am unaware of?

I completely agree. 60p is beautiful. But 120p is also incredible. Yes the Epic-S is rumored to have 120p, but at 2K. If you are shooting a film in 35mm 5K, and have your slowmotion in 16mm 2K..you're gonna have problems.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I completely agree. 60p is beautiful. But 120p is also incredible. Yes the Epic-S is rumored to have 120p, but at 2K. If you are shooting a film in 35mm 5K, and have your slowmotion in 16mm 2K..you're gonna have problems.

90% of my output is the web and 1080p for television, I think I'll be fine. Not worth the extra $15k+ at the moment. Besides...even the biggest of releases get finished and projected at 2K still. I doubt any of the Sony 4K systems have ever even seen true 4K content. Most people have a tough time seeing a huge difference between 720p and 1080p, I'm sure the degree of quality is even smaller when comparing 2K to 4K. Not saying it's not noticeable, I'm all for 4K finish, but at the end of the day if a few shots here and there are in 2K, it's not gonna make much of a difference.

It's also like saying that 300fps on the Epic-M/X is a bad idea...

 

[Thomas Church]

I can see the theatrical world moving very soon to 4K, but I expect the home market to stick with 1080p for a long time.

It's just now that people worldwide are really beginning to trade their old TVs, and still most of them have DVDs and SD TV signals, even if they already have an HD TV.

I honestly can see glassless 3D becoming a reality at home way before 4K ever does.

It's far more markeatable and the difference is far more noticeable to the average joe.

Not to mention that the next batch of videogame consoles will probably invest heavily in 3D. (the PS3 and Xbox already support it, but it's still a niche)

Videogames have always been responsible for pushing some technologies foward faster. The PS2 did it for DVD, the Xbox 360 did it for HDTVs and the PS3 did it for Blu-Ray and 3D Televisions.

I expect the next batch to make 3D a must-have.

 

[Andrew Huse]

I agree, 2K will look beautiful. But I was talking about depth of field. 35mm vs 16mm. I don't think you can mix those two formats together when shooting slow motion. That's why it's better to rent a Epic-X to get the 120p shot in full 35mm 5K versus shooting in 16mm 2K so you can retain the 35mm depth of field.

 

[Tobias Ashenheim]

But it's amazing how many don't get what he is saying. He is not being anti Red, he is frustrated he can't get the affordable quality he thought would be here by now.

I get frustration, but i think its being fairly tasteless, complaining to the very company that is single handily pushing us out of the 1080p rut that companies like sony got complacent selling to filmmakers, simply because he thought it would be here by now, especially when theres people in japan who thought loved ones would be here now.

Make fun of Sony all you want. They are shipping product, Red is not. It will be interesting what happens if the F65 ships before the Epic-x/s do in quantity.
A LOT of people are moving on to the F3/FS100/AF100 route because of years of waiting for Red. Throw all the snarky, snide, "quality" arguments you want, it no longer makes a difference to them. Insults and inuendo will be ignored. They are too busy making movies.

I wonder if the F65 would have even been conceived, if it wasn't for RED. I know which company i trust with such an important investment. if your not concerned with shooting for projection, many will understand the jump, if planning to shoot features, think on it.

I couldn't afford to spend $18k+ on a camera that will be widely seen redundant (esp for shooting features) within a year. its not a small difference, lets face it, the F3 is another 1080p camera slightly better than other 1080p cameras that have been released for a decade, vs 5k raw /HDR/ modular camera. some things are worth the wait.


Plus, people do move to where theres work, or commute. waiting for a fiercely competitive industry to come to you, is ludicrous.

 

[Tobias Ashenheim]

I agree, 2K will look beautiful. But I was talking about depth of field. 35mm vs 16mm. I don't think you can mix those two formats together when shooting slow motion. That's why it's better to rent a Epic-X to get the 120p shot in full 35mm 5K versus shooting in 16mm 2K so you can retain the 35mm depth of field.

But the light loss from increased shutter speed for the 2k 120p will force you to stop down at 5k 24p and open up at 2k 120p, bridging the gap, plus focal length choice means Dof could go unnoticed.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I completely agree. 60p is beautiful. But 120p is also incredible. Yes the Epic-S is rumored to have 120p, but at 2K. If you are shooting a film in 35mm 5K, and have your slowmotion in 16mm 2K..you're gonna have problems.

Rumors? Are you sure it's not just people's wishful thinking?

 

[Michael Olsen]

Well, we have been told repeatedly that we are looking at roughly 1/2 the data handling ability. 5K at 60fps instead of 120fps. If that holds true, it is logical to assume the camera will be capable of at least 120fps at 2K instead of 300fps. Of course, there may be some variables hiding out that prevent that, but I don't think we've heard anything to the contrary yet.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

But the light loss from increased shutter speed for the 2k 120p will force you to stop down at 5k 24p and open up at 2k 120p, bridging the gap, plus focal length choice means Dof could go unnoticed.

Uh, well no - You use NDs to get the aperture you want in either case.