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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic package for China Run and Gun

J

Jay Espinal

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Hello Redusers,


I have a budget of about 70,000.00. I need help in putting together a Red camera package that I and an assistant can carry around China on their train lines. We will be filming a narrative the will have us traveling for 90% of the time. Something versatile that will allow me to Shoot, monitor and dump and keep on rolling.

I have a spreadsheet with all my items, the bulk of it from Red and some accessories from folks like x etc.

I'm looking for advice on what to buy and what not to buy as well as some things I may not be considering


Epic X
256 mag
256 mag
EVF [OLED]
1 RED TOUCH 5.0" LCD
1 DSMC SIDE HANDLE
1 REDMOTE
4 REDVOLT
1 DSMC TRAVEL CHARGER
Canon MOUNT TI
RED ARMOR
Proxy Module
Miller Compass 25 Sprinter II
Bright Tangerine Mattebox
RedRockmicro FF microRemote Wireless Bundle
The Recoil
x A-Box
Wooden Cam Quick Back
Wooden Cam Quick Back
Wooden Cam QB Switronix V-Mount
Wooden Cam QB Battery Back (Swit/IDX) - $79
Switronix GP-2LSJ 2-Position charger
(3) Switronix XP-L130S ($349.95)
 
Maybe it's just me, but I sure would not spend $70K on an Epic package for run n gun work in China traveling by train.
 
Having travelled across China by train twice, I can say that this sounds like an amazing job...

Right of the top I'd say you need at least 3x as many batteries - at least.
 
I would would change some and narrow it down a bit.

Epic X
256 mag X 4
1 RED TOUCH 5.0" LCD
1 DSMC SIDE HANDLE
4 REDVOLT
1 DSMC travel charger.
Canon MOUNT TI
Miller Compass 25 Sprinter II
Bright Tangerine Mattebox ( quite a big mattbox, for traveling on train)
RedRockmicro FF microRemote Wireless Bundle
The Recoil (not the best shoulder rig for sure, but might be good on such a trip)
x A-Box
+1 module
RED V-mount module.
Switronix GP-2LSJ 2-Position charger
(4) Switronix XP-L130S ($349.95)

The proxy thing does not exist and is not needed, edit r3d in CC and get a good laptop instead. transcoding you can do when you get back home.

Instead of evf, buy a loupe.

Skip the red mote, no need if you have the touch and side handle if you do not absolutely need the no wire capability of the redmote.
 
I've done a fair amount of train travel in China too. First off, of course foreigners do get privileges, but getting tickets can be iffy.
I'm sure you know all this.

As to the battery numbers, I agree you need more. I think 9 might be a bit luxurious and you have to lug them.
I think 6 should do, but would add an extra charger, so you have 2 dual chargers--
that way you've got backup & can charge 4 simultaneously. I would definitely have
at least 2 travel chargers if you're take 4 volts, again backup and dual charging.

I would consider a decent onboard mic for guidetrack with some kind of shock mount that works gracefully
with your normal rig. Even something like the inexpensive self or phantom powered Sennheiser ME-64 which is small and not bad.
There are self-powered Rodes
etc. Or you could go more shotgun with an MKH-60, very robust, very good off-axis, a bit longer. More expensive.
And of course there's the classic venerable 416 and a host of others. Anyway, think you'll
be happy to have good camera audio if this is run and gun.

I'd choose to go with 4x128 mags rather than 2x256 mags -- or 1x256 and 2x128 if you're thinking you'll
need really long continuous runs for some things. Will give you more flexibility in download situations. Personally
I'd probably go with 3 128s and 2x 64 s -- and that way you can keep a firmware build on a 64 if you're caught
without internet, etc. this can really save your behind. 9 times out of 10, any troubles, can be solved on the
spot with a firware refresh, but you've got to have it.

Many other thoughts. Sounds like a great adventure. I love train travel in China, and the country in general.
Would love to hear more about the project.
 
Every year I film a short piece for a company that has projects throughout the world... and this project involves lots of traveling, sometimes on foot through rugged terrain. Year 1, I was geared up and loaded, but that caused quite a strain and slowed me down terribly. I found I didn't use half the stuff I packed so by the 3rd year, I eventually trimmed off most the fat and carried just what I needed.

For run-n-gun, I'd probably lose the RedrockMicro wireless FF because it bulks things up with lots of extra items hanging from the camera... base station, cables, motor, rails and a d-tap to power it all.... slows me down more than anything. I feel the same about the matte box in run-n-gun situations and opt for screw-in filters to keep it light. I'd also suggest maybe picking up a top handle... trust me on this, it's valuable when you're on the go.
 
I love the wealth of info you guys are offering. I never been to China and have yet to shoot on a Red. Although I have plans to train and work on it fully before heading on this trip. I have been a huge fan from the start but never had the money to get one, now all that has changed. I want to make the right choice.

So far I will change up Mag configs to: (1x256, 2x128 and (1) 64).

Tom Van: I feel you on the bulk plus I'll add the Top handle for sure.

How as for the Batteries, are you guys talking about the RedVolts or advising me to bring more Switronix?

Guys I'm I making a mistake with getting a Red? I have always loved the company and its products but I need this project to be a success. With that said I'm just not feeling any of the other cameras out there right now.
 
As far as batteries are concerned, Redvolts will only last about 30 minutes and each 130wh brick will give you about 2hrs of runtime so with your setup, you're looking at 6-ish hours give or take. I'd go with more bricks and hot-swap throughout the day, you only need one Redvolt for that.

Camera-wise, I'd strongly suggest renting one, then go out there and operate the fuck out of it. I'm not talking about shooting tests shots of trees in the backyard. Shoot how you would normally shoot for a paying client. You'll have a better understanding of the camera, it's capabilities and hopefully the parts you'll need for run-n-gunning in China.

Good luck!
 
Your new card configuration looks good, but you might want to just buy 4x128's and 1x64 you might get a better price for that. OR, buy used.

- lose Redvolts and go all V-mount
- Because you have an Bomb EVF and Touch screen you'll need the +1 adapter module
- you might want to go with RED's Quick Plate instead so you can bolt that onto the back of the +1 Adapter, easy and compact.
- lose Redmote. Unless you're doing a lot of remote camera work, you won't need it - given the side handle
- lose Wireless FF. Get a smaller manual FF - you'll need ROD support. Otherwise don't use one at all much simpler
- if you keep the FF, put Wide Open Camera gears on your EF lenses, they are nice and compact and travel well
- No mention of how you'll mount your EVF but I suggest you get something that will allow you to do handheld (Solid Camera makes the one I like)
- If you are doing handheld, you might want to go with something simple like Ergocine's wooden handles because they attach to 15mm rods and won't interrupt your miller quick release
- if you do the handheld set-up I mention above, then you'll be resting the camera on your shoulder without a pad attached to the camera (I use a special pad that I wear) - but you can have the camera on your bare shoulder (I've done that for a full day).
- No mattebox a pain for run and gun and I'd go for the motion mount that'll be faster and also mitigate some global shutter issues you might have with being on a moving train
- without a mattebox (and perhaps a FF) you'll have more options for a smaller Run Bag that can house your camera fully built and ready to shoot

These are the things I keep thinking about having shot a fair amount of "run and gun" stuff.
 
my question is, do you really need the 4k, because otherwise you'd be much, much better off with another camera. Or with all the stuff you plan to bring, two assistants would be minimum, I'd say, if you don't want to strain yourself or loose footage etc.
 
If you want to shoot all day with a light set up, canon 16-35 24-105 variable nd filters 4x Pag batteries 4 x Redvolt 5 x 64 GB cards, light fast never a problem, current sticks sachtler MB8 with carbon legs. 15" MacBook Pro Retina lots of hard drives as you need three copies of rushes backup backup backup you have been warned.





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Wow Justin, Thank you for going through my post and breaking it down! Your years of experience benefit me greatly. Everything you mentioned makes a lot of sense along with everything else the rest of the good folks here mentioned. I like that you pointed me in the direction of the proper add-on or company that will have what I need. I could see how I can save a few bucks by not getting the matte box, FF and Redmote right now as I can put those dollars into good use buying better suited gear.

Tom: I couldn't agree with you more I have a few projects lined up where I will be AC and will get my hands on the camera and get a good feel for it before I buy my own or take the trip to China.


Shane: Why do you feel Red would not be the best camera for the job? Just wondering your insight on it.
 
[QUOTE


Shane: Why do you feel Red would not be the best camera for the job? Just wondering your insight on it.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that it's not, just wanted to hear more about what you were planning to shoot, then offer advice based upon the answer. When I've done one or 2 man jobs with the epic, the amount of batteries and the availability of recharging always comes up. If you know that you have access to power then this is not always an issue but it seems that in china this may come into play. You also brought up the prores module which is not available so I was wondering if you intended to use the prores files instead of r3d's.
I would definitely ditch the matte box and get a set of 77mm screw-in nd's and also go with more and smaller ssd's. Also lose the remote.
miller 25 with vj solo carbon fiber legs is a great travel set of head and sticks - top floor is over your head and ground floor is around 12".
 
Jay Espinal said:
...I never been to China and have yet to shoot on a Red.
Click to expand...

Wow. Well, what background are you coming from? Film, DSLR, Alexa, etc? RED is a wonderful tool but it takes time to get the nectar out of this fruit. Once you do it you'll never go back, but if this is the first time you work with a RED, it might be a steep learning curve. Will you be having a RED tech with you? I will strongly advise that you shoot some commercial projects (not just play around shots) prior to going.

One of the most critical things you'll need to worry about is the data transfer from the SSDs. Remember than unlike all other mediums, you CANNOT delete files on the SSD, so RED will consume your mags fast. 64G approx 26 minutes. Are you Windows or MAC based? Do you have a laptop that has USB 3.0, eSata or Thunderbolt?
Get 3 of these 4TB versions: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893262-REG/G_Technology_0g02537_4TB_G_Drive_USB_3_0.html
Use one to backup your data. ALWAYS BACK IT UP. If you think you'll need more then get the 6TB ones.

I agree with most here on power, go V-MOUNT. I use the REDVOLTS only for framing/set up/backup, but never for shooting, unless in an emergency.
Get 6 of these: http://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A2...S-R-Lithium-ion-Battery-160WH-for-Red-Camera/

Get a comfortable shoulder mount, you might not have the time or space to set up sticks. I have a MidasMount HitchHiker with the SnapFocus option, which I can carry all day while pulling focus. However, good luck getting one.

The more and more I think about it, not sure RED is the ideal setup for a run and gun project on a train in China, unless you NEED (not want) 4K deliverable.
 
Bob: If Red was not around the client would ask for 35mm, so I need to shoot the highest possible quality.

Andrew: Thank you for the thoughts and ideas brother.

Marcos: Thank you for your comments, to answer your question: I have shot 16mm film because before it faded away I wanted to expose myself to it that was a blast. After that my background is all digital cinematography. I jumped in with the Canon XL1 and the DVX100 and later the Canon XLH1 all of those for reality TV back in the day. As well as the HVX200a with the 35mm adapter for music videos etc. We all started somewhere right. I know Red is my next step in taking my cinematography to the next level. I was a still photographer and feel the curves is not gonna be bad if at all. I think with the right setup and configuration the Red Epic could serve me well in any situation. I just need to make sure I get the configuration right and have the proper support in personal and media to back up.
 
Jay - I've shot RED Scarlet as a duo act in Hong Kong, on a train through China, on a train through Japan, a week of street shooting in Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, etc, etc, etc... Not a huge deal if you are prepped, and have your kit down to the essentials. I always have the need to overpack for the what if situation, then I stop and breathe and remove the extra gear. Last trip I took 2 zooms ( 18-50' 50-150) and a 300 mm, lot's of batts, 5 RED Mags (4- 64 gigs, 1 -256 gig), light sticks / head, screw on pola / Nd, piece of black wrap, and a mic for guide track. Day to day it fit in two crumplers, and a backpack; on bigger moves we had a pelican roller case.

there's always the voice that says 'what if?' Well you can't pack for everything.... Some jobs are just different. Every job I've done that sounds similar to yours has made money, made the client happy, and helped me get better.

Have agree time!
 
Jay, no problem. I'm a fan of run and gun shoots, as long as they are truly run and gun. I'm not a fan of shoots where the producer/director call it a run and gun shoot, skimp on the details and then complain about the limitations that we might encounter. It's freeing to just take a camera out and "find" shots. There are plenty of other more experienced operators on here and this is just my own personal advice. This is especially in the type/brand of equipment I mention. Try things out, and actually shoot with them. Don't take my word for it, especially since we all have different preferences.

I shot a feature documentary on the US/Mexico boarder for a month, without lights, two lenses, small load sticks and a monopod. No assistant. On that shoot and I used my mattebox setup and was hindered by it a little. It's hard to change 4x4 while you have a monopod setup by yourself. Admittedly, I lost two filters on that shoot, one fell out of my belt pouch as I was jumping in and out of a car, and the other was after a tired long day and the filter fell out of my frame. It was the end of a long month of being on the road and I was exhausted. Expensive mistakes. I have since developed ideas about how I'd do that again if the need comes up.

Since you have an assistant you have some division of labor. I'd think about what types of things that will need to be done on your shoot and divide the tasks accordingly. If your assistant happens to be your director, than don't depend on them at all - directors often get inundated with the tasks they need to accomplished on the road and end up not being much of a help.

Thoughts on the division of labor would be: don't count on your assistant being with the camera when you need them. Make sure tasks like, lens changes, filtration, camera moves, camera position and safety can be accomplished by yourself. if you need an extra hand on any camera tasks, i.e. focus pulling, figure out how you can accomplish the task by yourself if your assistant isn't available. Principally, in these situations (especially for RED cameras) you have two goals, image capture and data backup. Both are equally important. Because you'll be traveling and in a foreign land, you'll want your assistant to maintain their attention to backing up all your data so you can make sure you're not losing anything, and that you have enough cards to keep rolling if need be. And because data backup needs power, they can keep all your batteries charged through the day as well.

I'd invest some time in looking into a backup system that you can KEEP in a case and not have to unpack/connect/repack as you go. They are expensive but they will SAVE YOU. Not only in time, but in protecting your footage. Anytime I've come into issues with footage loss (and I have a 100% success rate) is with a bad tweaky / kicked connection - either by power loss, or by a data cable being loose. You should seriously look into backup software that allows for multidrive backup, my favorite now is Silverstack. Version 3 is quite nice.

My general rule on these projects is keep everything in running order without having to build/rebuild any equipment.
 
Hi Jay, I'm still not exactly clear on the nature of the project, but good you have an assistant. Really necessary just to keep an eye on gear if nothing else.

I'm noticing a lot of advice on backup that I think might be presuming you're prepared to carry some pretty heavy-duty full-sized drives for triple backup. Fine if you can afford the weight and space.

But here's an alternative lighter weight suggestion that I used versions of shooting in both China, and much more challenging, Ethiopia. I used bare 2.5 inch drives for backup -- at the time, sticking them in OWC Mercury FW cases.

Now the situation is hugely better. You can purchase very inexpensive 1 , 1.5 or 2 TB WD passport drives with USB 3 interface. Very fast for a totally portable setup. You can get a very light Win laptops - or even 2 (always good to have BU) -- probably 3 to 3.5 pounds -- Asus or Toshiba make good ones -- for $500-600 -- with both powered eSata and USB 3 & use the eSata Red drive to feed the drives -- and maybe a couple of extra batteries for laptops -- or a rig something to power them off your bricks if the internal batteries go flat -- that way you've got a totally portable and lightweight download station you can run anywhere, any time, AC available or not. Not sophisticated, but it works. You can also periodically send a duplicate copy of those small drives home or stash in some safe location so you don't have all your eggs in one basket. The physical size/weight is very undemanding compared to full sized drives.

You can use one laptop for downloading. And the second can be doing a drive duplication. For a total weight of less than ten pounds and a maybe $1200 you've got a redundant independent of AC pretty darn fast download/BU station. And it's about $220 per 4 TB which will provide double backup of 1.8 TB of footage. $330 for triple backup weighing less than a pound!

I have downloaded many TBs this way and never lost anything. Actually, have never had one of those drives go bad (knock on wood) and I've got some that are 5 years plus old. (320 gigs was big then.)

Granted, this is not what many would regard as professional protocol, but it works. So, in case you need to go light, dragging and POWERING 3.5" drives for duplicate or triplicate (preferred) downloads of a lot of footage, will prove pretty demanding. And now that there are 2TB portable drives (yes a bit slower that full size drives) and bus powered -- it's an option. I've done it on month long and longer shoots that were footage intensive. You're talking
approximately 40 ounces for a single 4TB 3.5 inch drive ( virtually the same for 2TB or 3 TB which of course is much heavier per gig stored) -- where as it's only 12 ounces for 2 x 2TB (better than a single 4 TB as far as eggs in basket goes) -- so less than a third the weight and about 1/4 the physical space.


I think people sometimes extrapolate shooting in North America or Europe as being like shooting in China. It can be. If you're in Shanghai or Beijing, Guanzhou, etc -- of course. But it depends what train and where and for how long and are you getting off every day, etc -- there are many 2,3,4,5 day train rides in China -- it is a huge country. And the West is far less developed than the coastal regions.
 
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