EPIC PACKAGE $400 USD / DAY.

[Christian Munoz D]

Yeap. As you read on the title.

I know we are in a free economy, I know everyone is free of rent-out their equipment at the rate they please… but sometimes the situation reach the ridiculous point.

This past week I lost a rental opportunity for my Epic package because someone else beat me with an entire Epic-M package for only $400/day against my $1,200/day rate.
Actually, makes me sad to see desperate people trying to make a buck or two and trashing their equipment in order for what they think will recuperate their investment… ..
The saddest part is that the renter is a veteran fellow Reduser and very active on this forum.

Please guys, we need a little more respect for ourselves and we need to protect our investment…Do not trash the market again as happened with the Red One.

 

[Ken Willinger]

In the end, for very little gain, it is hurting ALL of us.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

This is insane business. I hope everyone over here is honest enough not to do such practises. I will never , and I really mean never.

I've been in other business and I'm still doing other business, and I've never worked for fees or did jobs that went beneath a reasonable rate.

I hope and these kind of companies go out of business really fast.

Who gains any benefit in doing so????

It's not honest to all people that fight to earn some money and that try to make a good investment.

I've heard ridiculous proposals over here as well, but I must honestly say , I don't hear much anymore from such guys lately, so I'm sure such a business plan won't hold to long.

again, who is doing any benefits with this in the long term????? This looks more and more like some people really want this business destroyed. A descent epic package with support costs a lot more then 1% to cover everything and to make a healthy profit.

I blame those who can't come up with better ideas then to ruin a market in a certain area.


I feel sorry for you , you are witnessing this.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

this is exactly how a business get's destroyed.

producers are taking benefit from it, artists have less respect for them trying to really make something good.
clients already try to get quotes to send around between crew , and they keep you busy making them, and then try to renegotiate about a better deal somewhere else.... where does it leads??
and in the end , they pay less, next time someone around will even do it again for less and so on..... this is selfdestructive business.

this is exactly what I want never to be part of...

hope we have an army over here who does think the same. With Scarlet it could even become worse, 1thing, I'll never rent out at bargains.... then these same people can come back saying gear was stolen, due to lack of having good insurance...

 

[Greg M]

Don't even try to compete with these idiots. From my experience every time a low ball bidder wins the job, the client ends up getting screwed in the end...whether it be from lack of tech support, not enough support gear and accessories (making them sub rent at the last minute, providing cameras that are beat-up and need service or from a hit at the end on L&D. The best thing to do is forget about it and spend your time and energy building relationships with clients that value service. You will never make money from a client that takes the low bid w/o consideration of these intangibles, so don't sweat it. Move on and find a client that trusts you and values your service and knowledge.

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

The best thing to do is forget about it and spend your time and energy building relationships with clients that value service.

Exactly. Put your energy into your own networking and marketing rather than spending energy on complaining about others. This other guy will learn his lesson the hard way after a student production rents from him and the camera ends up at the bottom of a pool.


Thread could use a better title though... (i.e. The Evil Undercutters or something)

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Don't even try to compete with these idiots. From my experience every time a low ball bidder wins the job, the client ends up getting screwed in the end...whether it be from lack of tech support, not enough support gear and accessories (making them sub rent at the last minute, providing cameras that are beat-up and need service or from a hit at the end on L&D. The best thing to do is forget about it and spend your time and energy building relationships with clients that value service. You will never make money from a client that takes the low bid w/o consideration of these intangibles, so don't sweat it. Move on and find a client that trusts you and values your service and knowledge.

+1 great post.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Great post guys, Thanks.
Just the be clear, I have a very successful business here in Massachusetts. So my post wasn't related in getting advice on how should I run it. Is just to expose the insanity of some people.

 

[Erich Ocean]

The OP likely rents his out at $400/day too:

10 day month @ $1200/day = $12K, divided by 30 days = $400/day.

So to all who say no one can stay in business renting at $400/day, well, apparently people do stay in business. In fact, it's a standard rate for a long-term rental.

Not to mention, it takes just 150 days to pay back an Epic-M at the $400/day rate. The second half of the year, the renter is in the black and gaining. And the Epic-M has a two year warranty! Furthermore, at that rate, he can actually rent the thing out more often, vs. sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

Yes, I think $400/day is low, but let's not pretend the guy is going out of business, or an idiot, or hurting the rest of us. If you do a 10-day month, you're doing the same thing as this renter.

And furthermore, there's only ONE camera available at that rate. Last time I checked, more than one Epic-M is being rented worldwide each day. So the rest of you can continue to charge more, and you'll continue to find people to rent to – all the cheap cameras are rented!

 

[Tim Bradley]

I find the clients that want the cheapest rate are always the hardest. I set a rate that I am happy with and do not change it client to client. If my rate is too high for the client they go elsewhere.

I have found that the odd client that goes elsewhere ends up coming back to me as they soon work out that the rate is only part of what they are getting from me. Its the service and knowledge that I offer that makes my offer attractive as the gear should be much the same as any good rental house.

We should all value our knowledge and ability to provide the right gear and charge an appropriate rate.

 

[Doug Beatty]

Work for free or for full rate, never at a discount. It cheapens you (and eventually the whole market) when producer x tells producer y that you can be had for less than sticker price.

If you can't afford to wait, there are always consignment and re-sale options to bail you out of your poor financial situation.

 

[Julio Quintana]

If this were a chat room for the oil industry, and Exxon, British Petroleum, and Chevron were talking the way you guys talk, there would be outrage in the media, followed by congressional hearings.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

The OP likely rents his out at $400/day too:

10 day month @ $1200/day = $12K, divided by 30 days = $400/day.

I'm sorry, but I do not know who you are and we had never done business with you. So, I do not have any idea from where those numbers come from.

 

[Bob Minervini]

I'm sorry, but I do not know who you are and we had never done business with you. So, I do not have any idea from where those numbers come from.

indeed where do these numbers come from... com'on $400/day, you gotta be joking. I was thinking of getting in the rental business for a very brief time, not anymore!

 

[jimhare]

Excellent point Tim! Clients who just want to screw you want just that, to screw you. Better off without them. I also agree with the work full or work free concept. With really good clients who has for deep discounts once in a while and I say I'd prefer to do those for free. Otherwise the discounted price eventually becomes the baseline. Also reduces the number of time they ask since they feel guilty that I'm working for free. In the long run I'm much better off.

I find the clients that want the cheapest rate are always the hardest. I set a rate that I am happy with and do not change it client to client. If my rate is too high for the client they go elsewhere.

I have found that the odd client that goes elsewhere ends up coming back to me as they soon work out that the rate is only part of what they are getting from me. Its the service and knowledge that I offer that makes my offer attractive as the gear should be much the same as any good rental house.

We should all value our knowledge and ability to provide the right gear and charge an appropriate rate.

 

[jimhare]

I'm sorry, but I do not know who you are and we had never done business with you. So, I do not have any idea from where those numbers come from.

I think he was just pointing out that if you do longterm rentals, the discounts eventually get you to $400 per day anyway, it's not a reflection on you or anyone else renting, just a fact.

4-day weeks, 10-day months etc.

 

[Johnny Friday]

I think he was just pointing out that if you do longterm rentals, the discounts eventually get you to $400 per day anyway, it's not a reflection on you or anyone else renting, just a fact.

4-day weeks, 10-day months etc.

4 day week? In LA it's usually a 3 day week....so rates might be lower than suggested. But anyway, thought i'd point that out as i have to rent gear on MANY occasions on a 3 day week. But base rate on camera + add accessories usually exceeds $1200 to $1500 daily....

 

[Erich Ocean]

I think he was just pointing out that if you do longterm rentals, the discounts eventually get you to $400 per day anyway, it's not a reflection on you or anyone else renting, just a fact.

4-day weeks, 10-day months etc.

Thanks, that is indeed what I meant (though usually it's a 3-day week, as Johnny Friday noted).

 

[Michael Hastings]

In the video world 4 day week is common.

An eng/EFP style epic-x package with canon mount and Canon 24-70 zoom and a 256 gig SSD ($2500 if you can do a quad pack with someone) can be put together for less than $24K which is 60 days at $400. Certainly you'd like to get more but that isn't at all a bad return in any normal business sense. Many potential renters already have support gear - tripods, matte boxes, etc from other gear they have owned and don't need the whole magilla.

You can charge whatever you want and additional package may make it worth a lot more but in the end it is supply and demand that will determine rates, not an attempt to establish "norms" through Reduser and the reality is there are going to be thousands of epics and scarlets out there in a few months to push down prices.

 

[Jack Cooper]

Christian,

First, as an economist by training, I am totally loving the dialogue on this thread. I'll share a quick story about our Houston market. There were three "tiers" of Red owners in the city. The "big boys", the "established firms", and the owner-operators. Frequently, prior to Epic/Scarlet, day rates for Red One rentals varied between $400 - $700 for the second two categories. Panavision was in town (one of the "Big Boys") and their package was $1500 per day.

Panavision totally revamped their business model and closed their Houston depot last year. We know plenty of remaining Red owners who purchased Epics (even Stage II), and by the looks of the updates on the forum -- we should see a flood of Scarlets hit the State, and for sure some in Houston.

Not to confuse causation with correlation, but the market has a way of clearing itself based on a wide variety of factors. I just wanted to point out, in a very respectful way, from the standpoint of applied micro-economic theory, your original post is littered with some assumptions that wouldn't get you a C- in Econ 101. I think subsequent posters have reinforced that point as well.

We welcome those day rates and the success of the Houston owners.