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EPIC MX Highlight Rolloff thread....

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Luis Otero said:
I really think that everything that needed to be said and discussed about this topic, backed up with real life experiences or informed opinions, has been already outlined.

I vote to close this thread...

Phil, do you have the authority to close it?
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After so many constructive comments, you come with this dud post :-(

What's up with all the closed threads, deleted comments and banned members lately?

I say this with all due respect...
 
Luis Otero said:
I really think that everything that needed to be said and discussed about this topic, backed up with real life experiences or informed opinions, has been already outlined.

I vote to close this thread...

Phil, do you have the authority to close it?
Click to expand...

Great thread though - full marks to reduser for not getting flamed.
 
heated is cool

heated and documented is very cool

passion is what drives most of us

but if it is not a discussion, it is only noise.

lots of cool info in here, though!

but if the main point is that:
hey, i can overexpose a digital camera and make it look bad...

well, then - in all courtesy - i know how to do that, too

the alexa can break into a very similar yellow to what the original M red1 did.
the mx sensors can go purple

that is clip

and it is no reason to lett that kill your images, because all is eadilly resolveable in post, as all three have a nice rolloff, if you know what you're doing.

next question:
do sensors have to clip
afaik: yes, but you can make that look good or bad

next:
is it better to expose within range, than clipping?
my senseless answer is that THAT depends on the image you want to create

my "linearlight for dummies" article needs to be written by someone who bothers, it seems :-)

thanks again David!
 
Julio Quintana said:
Nice video, but I don't see what that has to do with highlight rolloff or sensor clipping at all.
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Maybe I'm wrong but also I thought you know well what is a black and white photography and in this case a cinematography....!!!???
 
Medavoym said:
After so many constructive comments, you come with this dud post :-(

What's up with all the closed threads, deleted comments and banned members lately?

I say this with all due respect...
Click to expand...

Me think someone here should activate the banned button before closing this thread.
B.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Maybe I'm wrong but also I thought you know well what is a black and white photography and in this case a cinematography....!!!???
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I think Julio is saying that that studio lighting situation probably didn't clip the sensor - but I think Sanjin was referring to the beautiful roll-off to the whites with consideration to the deep solid blacks, which would indicate that if the sensor wasn't clipping it sure was close to it. I could be wrong.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
heated is cool

heated and documented is very cool

thanks again David!
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I agree, there has to be passion inside a decent argument.

Let's try to stop taking anything into the personal and be respectful of the opinions and keep this going. I think it has produced some really good imagery and examples and can also serve as a learning tool for other members.

It's a bit of a left brained/right brained thread, i'm going to go back and re-read some stuff.

David
 
That Justin Timberlake video is gorgeous! I love the scenes in the studio even more than the on stage stuff. Song is good too!
Lots of wide contrast and white just goes to white where it is supposed to.

That said, a completely art directed, well lit, team effort, masterful production. If you are going to put on a tuxedo, everything else has to match!


David
 
Brett Harrison said:
I think Julio is saying that that studio lighting situation probably didn't clip the sensor - but I think Sanjin was referring to the beautiful roll-off to the whites with consideration to the deep solid blacks, which would indicate that if the sensor wasn't clipping it sure was close to it. I could be wrong.
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Actually no clipping because the sensor was pushed to the edge but you can't see properly due to the internet compression...and probably at 4K 8bit proper projection you can see more of the skin fine detail...
 
Nick Morrison said:
Brice I love you for posting this. I agree with you that ROLL-OFF and highlights can be very affected by the OPTICS you use. My opinion is that OLDER, LESS CONTRASTY lenses can be very helpful in creating smoother roll-off than some of their modern counterparts. One of the reasons I love CONTAX glass is that they are VERY SHARP, but also LOW-CON, which helps them generate a BLOOMING that is very pleasing etc. Older optics like Leica Rs, Nikkors, Super Speeds, Standards, Hasselblads, old Angenieux's, old Cookes, all have the potential to render in this "ORGANIC" way. I know that word is hackneyed but it works for what we are talking about.
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Ha ha, I intentionally talk of this because of you, and I was hoping for you to pop in to develop your theory, as you are more knwoledgeable than me in that context.
And please come back we need your expertise here, it's always a pleasure to read you.
I will always be grateful to you for the bargain I made with CZ Contax.
Cheers mate.
B.
 
I'm finding these low pass conversations pointless...

With or without..? Crushed or not crushed, flat or not flat, saturated or not saturated... flared or not flared... soft hi light, hard hi lights, or orange blacks , warm mids , green hi lights, blue casts.... black & white or not black & white.... sepia... ???? are all these questions for the person that is paying the bills, or an artist that wants a particular look.

At the end of the day...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... and that's usually the person grading the final shot.

I personally don't care about any low pass or non low pass look, as I change my mind like I change my underpants. :)

I just like to have choice. :)
 
Everything for the situation in the moment by the trained eye. It all comes down to choices and preference and what ever works, with whatever light in the exact moment you are executing the shot.

Well said Mark.

David
 
David Battistella said:
Everything for the situation in the moment by the trained eye. It all comes down to choices and preference and what ever works, with whatever light in the exact moment you are executing the shot.

We said Mark.

David
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100% agree :)
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm finding these low pass conversations pointless...

With or without..? Crushed or not crushed, flat or not flat, saturated or not saturated... flared or not flared... soft hi light, hard hi lights, or orange blacks , warm mids , green hi lights, blue casts.... black & white or not black & white.... sepia... ???? are all these questions for the person that is paying the bills, or an artist that wants a particular look.

At the end of the day...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... and that's usually the person grading the final shot.

I personally don't care about any low pass or non low pass look, as I change my mind like I change my underpants. :)

I just like to have choice. :)
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I couldn't agree more.

What Im trying to do here is learn about what is possible and best technique, particularly about filtration and how and were it is best applied. To get the best from any camera you have to learn how to use it to get the best out of it and I think one point that has been missed by some all cameras are different. We have an excelent camera in Epic MX and shortly to be Epic Dragon why cant we just get on and discuss how to get the best out of it.
 
Phil Holland said:
Okay. Before this thread goes off the rails.

First on Roger Deakins. Roger is basically implying that the general concept in terms of bayer pattern and CMOS technology is what are "basically the same". However, the sensors themselves are different in design as are the pixel size and array. Arri Alexa's pixels are 8.25 microns each, while Red Mysterium-X's are 5.4 microns each. Dragon is weighing in at a 5 micron pixel by the way.


Also, to answer the sort of weird informed origin of all this as Brett quoted above, both the Alexa and F65 clip. I have no idea why you would think they do not.


To be perfectly clear between DRX control (understanding what that does) and HDRx you have a lot of control over what happens "above the bar" in a given shot. Professionals here have posted nothing but solid examples and also have given their informed opinion. At this point I have no real idea what we're doing here and what exactly isn't clear.


Also, David Fincher chose to shoot the Justin Timberlake music video and the Calvin Klein commercial in monochrome. The key word there is chose. I'm 100% positive these were creative choices and not for really for any other crazy reason. He is one Director that doesn't really compromise on any front in terms of quality and shot execution.
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Phil I'm right with you on that. But desn't Red suggest that HDRx is not pushed more than 3EV? I might be wrong about this.

But the point I make is that in certain types of ligh design, DPs need for their highlights to just go all the way up, and if this is done in every shot of the movie/TV series it's not a good thing to be constantly having to control your highlights so that they don't clip in camera. In this kind of light DP's expose for a 'infinite' contrast ratio, and they 'only' adjust their readings on their middle light, i.e actors faces, or whatever has to be 'seen correctly'.

It's interesting that Roger himself said that shooting on Red you basically have to get your exposure right so that it doesn't clip. And what I understand from that it means that for those DPs that intentionally don't want to control their highlights, Red might not be the best choice of camera for that particular project. Not because you can't do it, you can, but at the cost of more time and probably more money to be constantly having to control your contrast ratio, when in fact what they want is exactly to have an off the chart contrast ratio...

So this brings to my point, if Deakins mentions that for Red not to clip you have to get your exposure right, that suggests he doesn't have to work the same way on his Alexa.

Doesn't the Alexa clip as well, or it doesn't clip as easily or what?

I'm not blindly going by Roger's words, but this is exactly my experience with both cameras as well, and it's funny that he has the same observations as I do about both cameras.
 
Antonio,

I am pretty sure that Roger Deakins and his grips and gaffers could light anything the way they want for what ever camera they want and any speed and budget. There are countless DP's who have shot major features on EPIC so I don't think it holds water to hold Deakins final decision on Alexa the only decision in the alexa/red debate (which I am still a bit surprised is going on frankly)

He did shoot EPIC's along side Alexa's on the bond film SKYFALL, so where does that put your argument?

The camera's shot side by side on the same scenes in the same lighting setups on that film.

I didn't see any glaring examples of where it was a blown out EPIC shot.

Just sayin'
 
Question for Antonio (with tongue in cheek...)

Question for Antonio (with tongue in cheek...)

I have followed this thread with great interest. Sometimes I felt like my head was spinning but it has been educational. I just thought I would help lighten things up a bit and hope Antonio gets that this is just a joke, meant to add levity to the conversation, not to be offensive in any manner...

Antonio, which camera was used for your avatar? ;-)
 
David Battistella said:
Antonio,

I am pretty sure that Roger Deakins and his grips and gaffers could light anything the way they want for what ever camera they want and any speed and budget. There are countless DP's who have shot major features on EPIC so I don't think it holds water to hold Deakins final decision on Alexa the only decision in the alexa/red debate (which I am still a bit surprised is going on frankly)

He did shoot EPIC's along side Alexa's on the bond film SKYFALL, so where does that put your argument?

The camera's shot side by side on the same scenes in the same lighting setups on that film.

I didn't see any glaring examples of where it was a blown out EPIC shot.

Just sayin'
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Are you saying that he shot Skyfall on two different cameras simultaneously? I find that very hard to believe. For one, why one earth would any film be shot on two different cameras shot by shot? Doesn't make any sense.

It would make much more sense if Epic was used for some plate shots for post production due to its 5K capture.

And please david stop trying to get me to sound like a fraud as if what I'm trying to argue doesn't make any sense or as an agenda. Clipping/overload might not make sense to you, or even be a problem for you and I accept that but it does to me and clearly to someone like Roger Deakins and as I know of to many other people too. Stop trying to be combative. This is a thread with different points of view, if you want to make it a one view only discussion, its not a discussion, its just another boring thread.

And I don't think that's the reason this thread as gotten more than 7 thousand views in just three days. If you want to praise Red, by all means do so, but don't try to stop me to discuss fundamental imagery issues just because you don't like it. I believe there's room for improvement. Always.

I mean I love MX as it is, I wouldn't need Dragon. If only it solved the clipping issue.
 
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