How Many Of You Planning A Movie Theater Feature On The 8x Fixed Scarlet?

[Omar]

Wow Alex what a response! Thanks for the tips! So looks like I was doing it fine with the DSLR H.264 footage. On the other hand with the R3D Raw files It's probably just best to link to those via AMA (if on Avid) and stay in that format until the end I'm guessing.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Wow Alex what a response! Thanks for the tips! So looks like I was doing it fine with the DSLR H.264 footage. On the other hand with the R3D Raw files It's probably just best to link to those via AMA (if on Avid) and stay in that format until the end I'm guessing.

I am not clear on how Avid handles the R3D files ... if linking them through AMA is the most direct way to handle R3D in Avid, then yes.

For my part I'd recommend using Premiere Pro 5.5 right now. Or Smoke.

 

[Sean Finnegan]

I was planning a feature film on Scarlet....three years ago.

 

[Jesi Kinnevan]

I would love to use a Scarlet on my first feature, but I've spent a lot of time this year getting to know the benefits of shooting with multiple lens options and I think the "fixed" part of the scarlet is the weakest aspect of it. And only 8x. I've spent several years shooting on a Canon XH-A1 and pushing its fixed 20x lens to the max. My biggest frustration was not being able to get much DOF variation indoors without zooming in a lot or using lots of extra light so I could use the double ND filter to allow me to open the iris enough to get what I wanted for close-ups, which you can't really do in tighter indoor spaces. The Scarlet interchangeable would be perfect, but that's scheduled behind fixed and epic light if I'm not mistaken. It's my understanding that Scarlet fixed will work fine for a feature if it's a documentary or a style that lends itself to a less varied "I shot this on a low budget" look, but I'd rather save up for the epic light or go for another option because I'd ideally like to use my next camera for photography as well, and a fixed lens is just as limiting in that realm as well.

Scarlet 8x is a smart move on Red's part though. It gets more people on Reds and gets them used to the workflow, especially younger filmmakers. It will be the best option in its price range for resolution and dynamic range, and maybe frame rate, but you'll have to get a lens adapter if you want it to look like the Canon 5D shots from Black Swan, but then you need more light, and you have to deal with all the adjustments and loss of sharpness that comes with using more glass. So I guess it just comes down to the look you want, the resolution you need, and what you're willing to pay.

 

[David Rasberry]

There will be the Scarlet Cinema interchangeable lens model too. Use Red mini-primes or 16mm/S16mm film lenses or C-mount video lenses.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I would love to use a Scarlet on my first feature, but I've spent a lot of time this year getting to know the benefits of shooting with multiple lens options and I think the "fixed" part of the scarlet is the weakest aspect of it. And only 8x. I've spent several years shooting on a Canon XH-A1 and pushing its fixed 20x lens to the max. My biggest frustration was not being able to get much DOF variation indoors without zooming in a lot or using lots of extra light so I could use the double ND filter to allow me to open the iris enough to get what I wanted for close-ups, which you can't really do in tighter indoor spaces. The Scarlet interchangeable would be perfect, but that's scheduled behind fixed and epic light if I'm not mistaken. It's my understanding that Scarlet fixed will work fine for a feature if it's a documentary or a style that lends itself to a less varied "I shot this on a low budget" look, but I'd rather save up for the epic light or go for another option because I'd ideally like to use my next camera for photography as well, and a fixed lens is just as limiting in that realm as well.

Scarlet 8x is a smart move on Red's part though. It gets more people on Reds and gets them used to the workflow, especially younger filmmakers. It will be the best option in its price range for resolution and dynamic range, and maybe frame rate, but you'll have to get a lens adapter if you want it to look like the Canon 5D shots from Black Swan, but then you need more light, and you have to deal with all the adjustments and loss of sharpness that comes with using more glass. So I guess it just comes down to the look you want, the resolution you need, and what you're willing to pay.

Ha ... I'm imagining a Scarlet fixed with a Letus adapter on it.

I hate those things.

Anyway, you are going to have fantastic sensitivity on your Scarlet Fixed, and I am willing to bet that you'll be perfectly content using it with a Letus- aside from the ungainliness of that set up and its various other restrictions/limitations.

If you really want shallow DOF photography, get an Epic and be done with it. Until its available and you can afford it, get a DSLR and deal with its limitations. Be careful and buy accessory gear that you can use with a Red One or 35mm (That's actually easy, it just takes a little forethought.) Aks that work with R1 or 35mm set ups will work with Epics.

If you want to use a Scarlet fixed for cinema style work without a Letus you can. You may have to do this moving the camera thing though. There will almost certainly be a wide angle adapters and some extenders from some 3rd party if Red doesn't make them, which will really work well for a lot of users. The camera will have the sensitivity to make up the light loss. Stay wide open and you'll be tons happier than you were with a 1/3" camera.

 

[John Byrne]

I'll throw my hat into the ring. Having been a lone wolf publisher forever, I want to learn the craft (s) of motion pictures because I love them, and because at my age, what other avenues do I have?

So, I'm going to do SOMETHING. What, is almost irrelevant at this stage because I am SO incredibly green. Yet, many of us are probably the types who can learn just enough to be dangerous. I always remind myself of the very few over-the-top things that have happen as a result. For example golf. I am not very good. At best an 8-handicapper. Yet I always played from the tips (back/pro tees) because I could hit it far enough and felt that if I ever made a hole-in-one from the 'white' tees, I'd always regret it! I made two, thus far, and one was a 200-yard 5-iron on Bethpage Black No. 17. Another example is in photography. I still don't know my a-- from my elboy in so many areas of the craft, but after years of shooting a manual 35 mm film camera, and then an EOS, an then an Olympus digital, and then an overly-expensive dSLR (D2X), I shot even higher (way beyond my means or skill-level) and started shooting 4x5 chromes on a view camera. When I learned about 8x10, and was told:"It's exponentially harder to shoot than 4x5," I started shooting 8x10.

Pro photographers would scoff at me and snipe that it isn't the camera. I beg to differ and won the Hawaii ADDY first place award (Pele) in 2008 for business photography and then was runner-up the next year. In 2010 we had to stop running Hawaii's only sheet film processor (it was in my studio) and there went the 8x10 and 4x5 and I 'blanked' at the Pele's. Did I make more money shooting 8x10? Not really for any one job, but I know it 'wowed' the clients and earned me more work.

I say all this because I hear almost everyone here in that we all have our stories and believe in ourselves, no matter who else doesn't. We pray that there is still the opportunity to strike a chord/vein and find that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Calling it a 'long-shot' is an understatement, but at least all of use who are in this kind of boat can empathize.

Reading the minute detail we must all know in order to achieve the OP's mission: movie-theatre quality, is so what I think many of us have had to endure. He's an audio engineer. How bad I am at audio! But, I am learning how vital it is to the success of telling the story. Telling the story is, after all, what this is all about.

Many here (especially the successful ones, will (and have said even in this thread) that even DV is 'good enough' for the screen. They are right: if it is the Hindenberg exploding... But how many crappy stories are told everyday that make millions because of the sizzle of FX and HD? I would argue that I see so many movies today that seem so poorly written, yet they are smashes. I see so many actors and actresses that are big starts, yet don't remind me of the Kate Hepburn or Spencer Tracy of yore. Instead, they have tech crutches that many here provide for them. So, I think it can be doe. By me, you, all of us.

I once won a Pokerstars online tournament where I paid $10 to enter and won an all-expense-paid trip to Macao and a seat in a pro tour event. I didn't know my a-- from my elbow, but I knew enough to be dangerous....

Good luck to all of us!

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'll throw my hat into the ring. Having been a lone wolf publisher forever, I want to learn the craft (s) of motion pictures because I love them, and because at my age, what other avenues do I have?

Any you choose?

Another example is in photography. I still don't know my a-- from my elboy in so many areas of the craft,

Actually John, it sounds like you know plenty - starting with knowing you don't know your ass from your elbow.

That may sound like sarcasm, but its not.

I'd much rather have a person on my crew that knows nothing, and knows they know nothing and are humble enough to be willing to learn ... as opposed to some jerk who actually does know a few things but doesn't know enough to be useful and is too stuck on themselves to learn.

One thing you sort of learned is that quality gear matters - but you need to learn how to use it.

Now here's the thing - The original 28 Days movie was shot on a XL-1 MiniDV camcorder. Parts of Star Wars Episode 1 and Episode 2 were shot with MiniDV cameras. (Mostly live action "extras" that were comped into small areas of the frame.) You don't need the best gear.

The flip side of that is that times have changed.

People are used to HD now, and standards in general are "up." That means you need better gear. That still doesn't require an Epic, or even an R1. A 7D will do just fine. No ... seriously.

Don't listen to the people here when they tell you it can't be done without this or that. They are playing at the very top of the game, and the differences between R1, Epic and 35mm are hugely apparent to them and their clients.

As a learning tool for the important crafts - lighting, composition, framing, sound recording, etc., I find a Canon 7D ideal. If you follow all the "rules" the results can be very good. Of course if you screw it up, then its screwed up.

(RAW digital or film can give you more latitude to save screwed up footage - that makes them better formats, and depending on that feature makes you a worse cinematographer!)

So, if your aim is to learn the craft, grab a Canon 7D (or the like) and start shooting and learning. I expect you'll be fine.

Make some smart choices in support gear and accessories, and then when you get that Red Epic (and if film making is your thing, then I'd skip the Scarlet cameras) all your accessories will just work for you.

More importantly the experiences from those shows and little fun projects you did with your low end DSLR will serve you very well.

Later, when you know a thing or two, sink some cash into a real camera.

Now ... if you have the cash to burn today then buying an Epic now can't hurt you.

Just remember, you need lighting, grip, camera support, camera movement (dollies jibs etc) camera accessories (rods, grips, various plates, follow focus, monitors, cables etc etc.) Oh and a post system suited to managing all that stuff. And you need to know what to do with that junk. There is not so much point having an Epic if getting it up and running blows your budget and you don't have any of the cool toys to make your picture or budget to rent with.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I was just wondering after reading here for a while how many of you are planning on shooting a Theatrical Movie Theater Release on the 8x scarlet fixed, and if you guys had any opinions on the subject. As in down rezing the 3k to a 2k digital intermediate for the final post,edit,grade and transfer to 35mm or things of that nature(sorry if this statement is inaccurate as i am a beginner.

My strongest advice is you do two things:

1) figure out your workflow, from camera to debayering to offline to conforming to color-correction to final output.

2) do lots of tests prior to the start of production so that you know what to expect from the camera under a variety of conditions.

I think this is especially true with a brand-new camera that hasn't yet been widely used.

In a perfect world, you should also hire a good post supervisor to assist with this process and help you avoid wasting time and money towards the end of the project.

Michael Cioni teaches an excellent post class as part of Reducation, and one of his major lessons is to figure out where the project has to finally end up (film out, 4K projection, 2K projection, or just HD delivery), then work backwards from there to determine all the necessary steps to get the job done.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

John B. I'm not sure about you but a 8 handicap with 2 hole in ones at any age is a very good golfer in my book! ... I know I have played my whole life and never met the conditions to establish a proper handicap but still doubt I would have broken 10 at any point in my life, and I'm no slouch(actually I'm a tremendous slouch), ah well there's always retirement.

 

[David Rasberry]

As a learning tool for the important crafts - lighting, composition, framing, sound recording, etc., I find a Canon 7D ideal. If you follow all the "rules" the results can be very good. Of course if you screw it up, then its screwed up.

(RAW digital or film can give you more latitude to save screwed up footage - that makes them better formats, and depending on that feature makes you a worse cinematographer!)

So, if your aim is to learn the craft, grab a Canon 7D (or the like) and start shooting and learning. I expect you'll be fine.

Make some smart choices in support gear and accessories, and then when you get that Red Epic (and if film making is your thing, then I'd skip the Scarlet cameras) all your accessories will just work for you.

The attitude that only a 35mm format camera is worthy of consideration as a film making tool, even when it shoots at its best very mediocre quality video under very limited conditions, makes no sense to me at all, This is especially true in a period where top Oscar nominated and winning films for the last three years running, including best picture and best cinematography, have been mostly or entirely shot on 2/3" video or 16mm film format cameras. (Slumdog Millionaire, Benjamin Button, Hurt Locker, Avatar, Black Swan).
It is not worth sacrificing absolutely everything else that makes for a high resolution, high quality, cinematic image suitable for the big screen just to get a bit more shallow DOF characteristics.
DSLR's are decent still cameras, but for general motion picture/video production for almost any purpose I would take a Scarlet fixed or interchangeable 2/3" over a DSLR any day.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

The attitude that only a 35mm format camera is worthy of consideration as a film making tool, even when it shoots at its best very mediocre quality video under very limited conditions, makes no sense to me at all, This is especially true in a period where top Oscar nominated and winning films for the last three years running, including best picture and best cinematography, have been mostly or entirely shot on 2/3" video or 16mm film format cameras. (Slumdog Millionaire, Benjamin Button, Hurt Locker, Avatar, Black Swan).
It is not worth sacrificing absolutely everything else that makes for a high resolution, high quality, cinematic image suitable for the big screen just to get a bit more shallow DOF characteristics.
DSLR's are decent still cameras, but for general motion picture/video production for almost any purpose I would take a Scarlet fixed or interchangeable 2/3" over a DSLR any day.

Yes and you would spend many multiples of the cost of DSLR in every case.

Scarlet is the cheap option - but it doesn't exist yet in any consumer sense. Scarlet still needs all the accessories - Rods, FF etc.

Everything else starts at over $10000 USD to buy, and rentals get costly quickly if you look at 16mm. An HPX500, which is a entry level 720p 2/3" P2 camera with features comparable to an HVX200, rents for $550 per day. That is an ENG configuration, not a cinema config.

So, you could shoot 2/3" video for four days for the purchase price of a DSLR with a kit lens.

So ... I stand by my assertion that a 7D is a great learning tool

Also, despite the complaints of tons of people like you here on RedUser, I can say that audiences and even film pros are often impressed by 7D footage. Most of the time people ask me what film stock I used when they see my 7D footage. Oddly enough those same people tell me how crappy DSLR's are when I tell them I used a DSLR. I usually just smile, and when they are done ranting remind them that they just complimented me on my cinematography- and that if I had said I used "Kodak 7219" (sic) they'd be none the wiser.

PEOPLE matter way more than gear.

Yeah, I can shoot better images on Epic than a 7D ... but that's because I'm already good. I bet Deakins, Storaro or Pfister could outshoot my work on an Epic using a DSLR.

Look at the flip side. I've shot a feature, four shorts, 10 or 12 commercials and two music videos because DSLR was an option. None of those projects would have happened with a Red One or Epic. Most wouldn't have happened with an HPX500. I'll take that experience over being able to say "I only shoot Red" any day.

 

[John Bannister]

Yes!

We have a production meeting scheduled for the 25th of next month for our movie, The Toll House. We are starting to do all the ground work while we wait for the hardware to be released. We are planning on two units, one fixed and one with a set of primes. Exciting times ! This feature will be shot exclusively on Scarlets.

 

[David Rasberry]

Yes and you would spend many multiples of the cost of DSLR in every case.

Scarlet is the cheap option - but it doesn't exist yet in any consumer sense. Scarlet still needs all the accessories - Rods, FF etc.

Everything else starts at over $10000 USD to buy, and rentals get costly quickly if you look at 16mm. An HPX500, which is a entry level 720p 2/3" P2 camera with features comparable to an HVX200, rents for $550 per day. That is an ENG configuration, not a cinema config.

So, you could shoot 2/3" video for four days for the purchase price of a DSLR with a kit lens.

So ... I stand by my assertion that a 7D is a great learning tool

Also, despite the complaints of tons of people like you here on RedUser, I can say that audiences and even film pros are often impressed by 7D footage. Most of the time people ask me what film stock I used when they see my 7D footage. Oddly enough those same people tell me how crappy DSLR's are when I tell them I used a DSLR. I usually just smile, and when they are done ranting remind them that they just complimented me on my cinematography- and that if I had said I used "Kodak 7219" (sic) they'd be none the wiser.

PEOPLE matter way more than gear.

Yeah, I can shoot better images on Epic than a 7D ... but that's because I'm already good. I bet Deakins, Storaro or Pfister could outshoot my work on an Epic using a DSLR.

Look at the flip side. I've shot a feature, four shorts, 10 or 12 commercials and two music videos because DSLR was an option. None of those projects would have happened with a Red One or Epic. Most wouldn't have happened with an HPX500. I'll take that experience over being able to say "I only shoot Red" any day.

Can't argue with DSLR's as the go to micro budget option for many projects. It is nice to have them around. I expect to easily spend more than $10k on a practical Scarlet Cinema field package. But a DSLR also needs all of the same support hardware too, so it would come down to the difference in cost of body and lenses for the most part.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Can't argue with DSLR's as the go to micro budget option for many projects. It is nice to have them around. I expect to easily spend more than $10k on a practical Scarlet Cinema field package. But a DSLR also needs all of the same support hardware too, so it would come down to the difference in cost of body and lenses for the most part.

Except Scarlet doesn't exist yet.

Tiny detail there.

So, if you are shooting now, then buy a dumb DSLR, and shoot shoot shoot.

Accessories and grip are the same for DSLR, Epic and Scarlet. Just don't buy bargain basement gear, and you'll be able to use it on Epic. I advise buying gear for keeps.

 

[Pascal Payant]

I'm preparing my feature film right now to be shot in France and L.A. I was thinking using the 5d mark 2 but if RED decided to release the Scarlet interchangeable lenses before Xmas i will buy it right away. I think it can be a deal changer for indie filmmaker. I hope they can bring the accessories prices a little down tho.

 

[Maik Müller]

I have not planned anything yet, just collecting ideas... I don't want to invest in a DSLR-system, not for film-making. I made my tests, played with them here and there, yes they can do good work, yes they allow micro-budget-shoots, but i never felt the need to jump in. And now with RED being so close to release? No way. ;-) I can wait.

Well, i always had my best friend's wedding in mind, i wanted to shoot that with one of red's magic devices (scarlet or epic-s). Could have been a nice little gift for them... But i have to give up on that, the wedding is near (end of june).

 

[John Byrne]

Except Scarlet doesn't exist yet.

Tiny detail there.

So, if you are shooting now, then buy a dumb DSLR, and shoot shoot shoot.

Accessories and grip are the same for DSLR, Epic and Scarlet. Just don't buy bargain basement gear, and you'll be able to use it on Epic. I advise buying gear for keeps.

I'd imagine Alexander has more experience in this business than many of us 'film makers'. The actual job of storytelling on screen and what stories we all intend to make (I think) were what the OP's intent was here. (I failed to cite anything either). But the sooner we are shooting the better is what I gather from that sage advice; something I could surely use more of.... (Has anyone else here ever had to learn everything the hard way?)

So: what movie theater feature on the 8x fixed Scarlet do I intend to produce? It will be a drama. I haven't got a title yet, but it will be long the lines of the films made in the golden era, where techniques of all sorts were more limited and focused on getting the point of the tale across. Because of where I am the story will have a plot that appeals to the masses but is set here in Hawaii. There will be a romantic twist, a sense of danger, a beginning, middle, and climactic end. The ending will be happy.

I plan to practice (with Alexander's suggested medium) shooting scenes for the sake of understanding how they are actually done. By learning as I go, it will help me to develop my script and shot list. I will take notes from the masters and keep a log of what I do and how I do it and post it on a forum where I can be critiqued, often.

Perhaps, as I do all of my learning I will be accumulating a small cast and other mentors to help me.

This all takes time as (at least for me) this will be a part time effort while I earn my tiny pittance of an income wearing five or six other hats....

The Scarlet, or some other manifestation of it, will probably debut during this process. I will have the luxury of reading about everyone's experiences with it as I train and write and build a foundation for myself. Every technique needs to be grade A if a project is going to even have a chance of being taken seriously. The image acquisition/post equipment/technology/MO is crucial, but so too is casting, scriptwriting, location scouting, shot list, wardrobe, make-up, direction, sound, lighting, editing, PR, distribution, and so much more.

Perhaps this thread should have a preface to it, such as: I'm a bright guy who has no idea what I'm in for.... Or, I've made 20 films and my next will be.... It is probably very helpful to know where each respondent is coming from, especially for those of us who can benefit from your wisdom.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I have not planned anything yet, just collecting ideas... I don't want to invest in a DSLR-system, not for film-making. I made my tests, played with them here and there, yes they can do good work, yes they allow micro-budget-shoots, but i never felt the need to jump in.

What I want to impress on all of you is that you should be buying your system, not a "DSLR system."

Don't buy DSLR specific accessories. Buy quality cinema accessories.

Then you are investing in a quality cinema system.

That's the way of the future. Your camera is a thing you will hang off the back of your actual investment in cinema gear.

So ... buy that cinema system ... bit by bit.

With all the right gear ... you can attach a Canon DSLR or an Epic or whatever comes next and get to work.

Also "magic boxes?" Don't get the idea that Red cameras make better pictures magically.

You have to do the work. If you shoot awful pictures on a 7D, then you'll shoot awful pictures on an Epic M. You'll just spend a LOT more money to do so.

And now with RED being so close to release? No way. ;-) I can wait.

So close to release on what exactly? Are you having secret conversations with Jim?

The only Red cameras you can get your hands on today at any price are Red One M (used) Red One MX and Red EPIC M.

The next thing coming from Red is Epic X, then Epic S ... then the Scarlets.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

The next thing coming from Red is Epic X, then Epic S ... then the Scarlets.

You seem so very sure about everything (one might even be tempted to say, arrogantly so). Are you sure about this? That's not the way I have understood it :nono: