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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC-M Monochrome

Jeff Kilgroe said:
Er... The "solution" is to use a sensor capable of differentiating the wavelengths that charge each photosite on the sensor. Effectively doing away with color filter arrays and prism blocks and whatnot. Go ahead, invent one, that is the next big (and logical) evolutionary step for image sensors. We start getting into quantum charge directions and photon determination. Detecting the wavelength of light is not a big deal, but doing it independently, on millions of tiny little dots, and building a digital composite value of millions of photon strikes on those little dots, that becomes a whole different deal.

Ultimate goal would be to not have any color filters, prisms or any light modifcation from the time the light emits from the rear of the lens until it hits the sensor. To have a sensor that can "see color".

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Digital audio already does this with fast Fourier transform analysis. But for this to work, your smallest sub-pixel element would have to be half the wavelength of the highest spectral frequency of interest. I' say we have quite a few more Moore's law cycles and nano tech break thoughs to go before this can be achieved.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Er... The "solution" is to use a sensor capable of differentiating the wavelengths that charge each photosite on the sensor. Effectively doing away with color filter arrays and prism blocks and whatnot. Go ahead, invent one, that is the next big (and logical) evolutionary step for image sensors. We start getting into quantum charge directions and photon determination. Detecting the wavelength of light is not a big deal, but doing it independently, on millions of tiny little dots, and building a digital composite value of millions of photon strikes on those little dots, that becomes a whole different deal.

Splitting the light before it hits the sensor has been done. Using color filters such as the Bayer CFA or a prism found in 3-chip cameras. If you split the light, so what? You then need a way to record the split light. So we're back to a filtered pattern (like Bayer or the 3-strip system used in the F35 / Genesis) or you need multiple sensors that are tuned to each split light component -- 3-chip HD camera... One could always use a prism system that alternates which wavelength contacts the sensor in sequnce and then regord R, then G, then B... But then we would have temporal distortion between the R, G and B components...

Ultimate goal would be to not have any color filters, prisms or any light modifcation from the time the light emits from the rear of the lens until it hits the sensor. To have a sensor that can "see color".

As for 3-strip color process in a digital system like this. You still need 3 cameras or 3 sensors, same as it's always been. 3-chip prism cameras, Bayer pattern or RGB stripe pattern sensors are pretty much the equivalent of 3-strip film process. When we get into a digital world, we're still locked into R, G and B as our primary color channels in a 3-component system. There is actually no reason why we have to restrict ourselves in that way. It's easier for the human mind to quantify color components in that manner and we can derive all the visible range that humans can see in a transmissive color system with these components. For passive or subtractive color systems, we use CMYK process to accomplish the same.

The only advantage to trying to push this newer tech through a 3-strip color process is to have the same level of color filtration control that is available shooting a 3-strip film process. And that can be done the same way it has always been done with film. Even better now, look how small the EPIC brain is.
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Precisely! Great, we’re narrowing the GAP! As more people become involved the puzzle get’s clearer! We’re still in the Science Fiction part of the equation, now to move over to the Science Reality of the equation, its a jump, but it’s just a matter off-time.

Humberto Rivera
 
I'm impressed by the will to support that tiny little, but very interesting niche. One more thing that sets RED worlds apart from others. I have to admit that i'm not a big monochrome-fan, but that might change when samples arrive. But be warned, if you get me hooked to that you'll have to come up with a monochrome Scarlet, hehe. ;) Anyway, great stuff guys.
 
Paul what I’m talking about is:

Jeff Kilgroe said:
The only advantage to trying to push this newer tech through a 3-strip color process is to have the same level of color filtration control that is available shooting a 3-strip film process. And that can be done the same way it has always been done with film. Even better now, look how small the EPIC brain is.
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A 3-strip Technicolor camera from the 1930s. Two strips of 35 mm black and white film negative, one sensitive to blue light and the other to red light, ran together through an aperture behind a magenta filter, which allowed blue and red light to pass through. A third film strip of black and white film negative ran through a separate aperture, behind a green filter. The two apertures were positioned at 90 degrees to each other, and a gold-flecked mirror positioned at 45 degrees behind the lens allowed 1/3 of the incoming light to go directly through to the green-filtered aperture, and reflected the remaining light to the magenta-filtered aperture. Because of this division of light between three film strips, Technicolor photography required much more lighting than black and white photography. The camera is seen here without its sound-proofing "blimp" cover, which doubled its size. Photo taken at the Museum of the Moving Image, in Astoria, Queens, New York. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3-strip_Technicolor_camera.jpg

The mechanical solution to the problem has a modern day fix; it just hasn’t come to life yet. The camera in the picture has the new technology that continued to evolve in a “Yellow Box” (Kodak). Now is time for it to evolve in the “Red Camera”.

Humberto Rivera
 
The 'problem' you are trying to fix is not mechanical, it is physical. It has to do with light and current sensor technology. If you want three separate, simultaneous monochrome exposures, you need 3 monochrome epics and some mirrors. It's not out of the question that a single 3MOS design could come out, which is basically just like 3CCD cameras have been for awhile, but the bayer pattern works pretty well... everybody uses it. the other thing to look at is some kind of stacked sensor array, but that has inherent flaws that pretty much make it not worth the trouble.
 
Paul considers this;

paulherrin said:
The 'problem' you are trying to fix is not mechanical, it is physical. It has to do with light and current sensor technology. If you want three separate, simultaneous monochrome exposures, you need 3 monochrome epics and some mirrors. It's not out of the question that a single 3MOS design could come out, which is basically just like 3CCD cameras have been for awhile, but the bayer pattern works pretty well... everybody uses it. the other thing to look at is some kind of stacked sensor array, but that has inherent flaws that pretty much make it not worth the trouble.
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First of all, this is a; WHAT IF QUESTION? I’m saying using a single Epic M or X Monochrome camera, capturing “Three Images” on single “HDRx File”, with its high ASA/ISO. That we come up with; “a yet-to-be-invented-solution”, where software is found for the currently described mechanical “Three Strip Technicolor 4 Process”. If they found a MECHANICAL solution for the problem in 1930s, we can certainly invent a SOFTWARE solution for to the year 2012 and beyond. So it can neatly fit in one Epic Red Camera Brain. I’m just saying it would be GREAT!

Humberto Rivera
 
This will be very interesting to see. I've always loved the dynamic range and tones of a good B&W photo. Apart from fashion, I hope this inspires more to film B&W movies? Re-Birth of the Noir anyone?!
 
Justen Nguyen said:
This will be very interesting to see. I've always loved the dynamic range and tones of a good B&W photo. Apart from fashion, I hope this inspires more to film B&W movies? Re-Birth of the Noir anyone?!
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Agree. The Artist last year kinda proved B&W.. at least one form of it.. to be successful.
 
Going back to the IR stuff, will you sell the OLPF that allows IR so we can try IR photography on our existing Epics?
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Paul considers this;



First of all, this is a; WHAT IF QUESTION? I’m saying using a single Epic M or X Monochrome camera, capturing “Three Images” on single “HDRx File”, with its high ASA/ISO. That we come up with; “a yet-to-be-invented-solution”, where software is found for the currently described mechanical “Three Strip Technicolor 4 Process”. If they found a MECHANICAL solution for the problem in 1930s, we can certainly invent a SOFTWARE solution for to the year 2012 and beyond. So it can neatly fit in one Epic Red Camera Brain. I’m just saying it would be GREAT!

Humberto Rivera
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dude. i don't know how else to tell you that this is not a software candidate. our generation thinks computers can do anything... personally, i'm glad we can't break physical laws.

now, back to black and white... it's awesome.

lotsa goodies in this thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?82914-Epic-amp-old-glass
 
Justen Nguyen said:
I hope this inspires more to film B&W movies? Re-Birth of the Noir anyone?!
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We're trying... http://www.troubleismy.biz - shot on Scarlet.
Existing thread about it here

We're still trying to finance it - but the first 17 minutes we shot are available to view on the website.

I think the Epic-M Monochrome is a brilliant move and will be used a lot more than some people might think.
 
With the RED ecosystem diversifying, (and likely continuing to do so further) I wonder if the concept of cross-grades and upgrades will be implemented - to allow owners to step between models? It could provide flexibility for people to invest, as well as a healthier environment than the current considerable secondhand market and its various pitfalls.
 
Jarred Land said:
It is significant to people that live in the B&W world. It is a request that we have had many times over the years just never had the resources to make it a reality.. until now.

Having a dedicated BW camera if you are shooting BW is leaps and bounds better than shooting in color then transferring to BW later. It is why they continue to make BW film. There is no color filters on each of the pixels so you get increased light to each pixel, and there is no debayer process, so you get a much "sharper" image... a better tonal transfer in gradients as there is no interpolation.
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Perfectly said, Jarred. This is a great thing for us Monochrome lovers. I may have not seen it, but how many stops will it have?
 
I'm salivating at the thought of the sharpness and silkyness this should bring. My bank account doesn't like the sound of it though :(

Shots like these could have really benefitted - adding post sharpening is just too apparent. I know I'm a pixel peeper, but I can tell I'm running into the OLPF as a limiting factor.

Click for fullsize - these are NOT EPIC Monochrome images, just sharing excitement ;)

 
I wish I had the cash....

:)
 
So now we just need a 4k B&W Tv to go with it=)
 
Jarred, How about taking all those RED One tradeins and re-purposing them as IR cameras? Make them affordable and suddenly you've got an R-1 boom in cameras and accessories.
 
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