Epic Dragons life expectancy

[Christoffer Glans]

I've been upgrading from a used Scarlet MX to an Epic Dragon, but now I've hit a wall with weapon. I'm thinking that there are many people who still shoot on a the Red One and have been able to deliver content for years using it. Now, in order to deliver for a nice looking 4K you would want a higher resolution like the Epic Dragon. So I started to think about the life expectancy of my camera. People praise the weapons ProRes and ability to be edited directly instead of transcoding, but computer technology gets better all the time and soon we will be able to edit R3Ds at 6K without breaking a sweat, which means ProRes isn't really needed if you can use the original files directly.

So, taking into account everything that is going on, in development and the world, how long might we actually be able to use the Epic Dragon in order to "stay in the game"?
4K resolution will be a standard for long and there are valid arguments for 8K not really getting a hold on the market as a distribution format (based on screen sizes and bandwidth etc.) for a long time or not at all. So on the argument of resolution, the Dragon will be able to deliver for a long time. Only a fraction will be delivering 8K for say VR or IMAX domes and those projects will probably be well funded.

But then there's noise, DR and low light sensitivity. Will these really be an issue or are we fooling ourselves that we need more than what the Dragon is capable of? With light technology coming out using LED solutions, keeping power outlets down while still being powerful and also colder and cheaper than HMIs. Is getting enough light really going to be an issue? We still need to light our images, so there will always be light.

I'm trying to figure out where we are heading with all this tech. Will video games and CGI completely take over when it reaches total photo realism? How much of the feature film market will be taken over using that technology? Real time photorealistic graphics for shooting feature films on the fly, without rendering? It's happening in test labs right now.
So what more is needed out of a camera today and future work for feature films?

Yes, we will always want to photograph the real world, but cost versus quality will always drive the industry into using pure CGI if it starts looking like real photography and when that bar is reached, the cost will start coming down for everyone to be able to use it.

So it comes down to the old question of "good enough". Isn't Epic Dragon actually good enough and even more? Are we fooling ourself thinking we need more when we actually have enough up until the point of everything getting digital?

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Christoffer, same here. Can´t justify the 8K investment right now. For motion work Dragon 6K is delivering exceptional image quality that will be more than enough for the next years to come. 8K for me boils down to having a larger sensor to pull better stills, for obvious reasons this is not economical, aiming at stills photographers there would be a need for a cheaper version that could max out at 25FPS. For motion work, it´s the VV size that´s tempting again, opening up the other can of worms which lenses will be available. With all other aspects I have to admit, I´m a happy camper. Not sure if I understand the demand and approach to shoot with higher ISOs, like you pointed out I don´t expect to shoot a scene without controlling the light, either with lamps or with flags. Don´t feel abandoned Epic is still a live product and serving well.

Cheers

Ulf

 

[Phil Holland]

That is a question only you can answer for yourself, even when photoreal CGI becomes cheap, fast, and "easy". There are RED Ones out there still happily shooting images and will be for some time to come. In my opinion anything that's currently out with the Dragon sensor has years of life in it. 6K-5K for a 4K finish is just very "right".

I don't understand the rub against 8K at all. It is literally a standard that has been defined back in 2007 along with 4K. It's part of the future. 4K right now is the industry's focus for many outlets. I agree that the earliest 8K productions will be higher end, but just like 4K it will become more common. We just got our real first taste of 8K at NAB 2015 and Cine Gear 2015.

If you are looking for answers on where you see the advantages of 4K and 8K I can only help with this:



For me personally in terms of what I'm looking for in the future:

- Sensor enhancements, development, and progression
- Continued development of improved Color Science
- More Dynamic Range is a good thing
- Higher resolution and larger format sizes, though digital VistaVision is something I've personally been after a hero format for sometime.
- More FPS across all resolutions

While it's impressive what some cameras can do at higher ISOs, that's far and away not what the vast majority of professional shooting is. It would be nice to have better higher ISO performance, but it's honestly not truly on my list after using Dragon for a couple of years and more so now that I've had an eyeball on the improvements seen in the Weapon footage. Room for improvement? Sure. My number 1 priority? Nope.

That's all 2D image talk. VR is going to land a very strong punch for some. And that is pretty much a new industry "again" to explore as we have the hardware to make it shine bright.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Phil, not saying anything against 8K, I would love to use it (and I think the same applies for Christoffer and many others) but just can't invest that much in my business model. It doesn´t make sense, but I expect an entry line 8K when prices come down.

Cheers

Ulf

 

[Owen Rennie]

Image wise im satisfied with Dragon and reckon I will be for 10 years.. However until I can shoot 1000fps and don't have to worry about black shading I'll be spending money to chase this!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The benefits of 8K is purely academic though and yes, we who work with this are surely able to spot the difference and appreciate 8K over 4K, but even 4K is a hard sell to the world. It's really only out there right now because the screen and TV manufacturers are selling them with the old "improved sharpness" argument. But the fact of the matter is that most people can't spot the difference, they don't understand or see the "benefit" of 4K and that means they will surely not be able to see any reason for getting 8K after 4K. It's going to be such a hard sell to break 8K into the world compared to 4K over 1080p, which most people actually see a difference between. Right now I'm mastering my stuff in 4K, but no one is watching 4K of anything I do yet, so at what time will they demand 8K?

Most cameras, Dragon included have the capability to deliver rec2020 and the future standards of color depth, DR and so on. So we already have most of the power in that little box of a camera.
Going further, as computer technology becomes cheaper and better, the workflow for Epic Dragon will become extremely smooth in just a few years. Three years from now, a 6K R3D workflow might not even be complex at all... a shoot to edit workflow all in real time.

Then there's the VFX arguments. How many VFX teams do stuff in 4K today? And if they do, how long will it take for them to advance into 8K? The higher resolution, the less time to render complex shaders and that means the overall quality of the render might be less than for a 4K delivery.

Yes, there are people in the industry that really needs to push their technology based on what they work with. But for series and feature film work, I'm not sure 8K or more than what we have in the Epic Dragon is really needed. Weapon is more about improvements with the camera body and operation and I'm really starting to understand the benefits of that over releasing a new sensor.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think the equation is more or less like this:

As long as the camera does what you need and doesn't cost you clients, it is good.
If not, you need to upgrade.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I've seen an NHK demo of 8k and my jaw just never returned to normal. That is the "holly grail" . I don't remember what the technology was but the images were a lot different to current 4k and 6K in terms of clarity and 3 dimensionality. Maybe the sweet spot for the next 20 to 30 years is not 8K but 10K due to debayer, looking at 6K Dragon being the sweet spot for the best 4K footage.

Anyway, bring on 8K at a Red Epic Dragon upgrade price, please, in the future, Red team! I don't mind keeping my Epic form factor and weight!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I think the equation is more or less like this:

As long as the camera does what you need and doesn't cost you clients, it is good.
If not, you need to upgrade.

Yes, this is true. But I think I'm speaking more in terms of you yourself as a client. If you are the production company making series and feature films, what quality do you feel you need for your own work delivered to the world.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I would estimate 3 generations of sensors forward from current 6k dragon. Then Dragon will be looked upon as old and the demand as a rental is probably not that hight... but if not broken it will still shoot images off course. I think it´s quite easy to see where things are going with sony a7 and sensor sensitivity, a few iterations from now things will probably have changes just as much as from first red sensor to the most current, or even more.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Yes, this is true. But I think I'm speaking more in terms of you yourself as a client. If you are the production company making series and feature films, what quality do you feel you need for your own work delivered to the world.

This is a great existential question, and it prompted me to look outside the filmmaking world for the answer. Thomas Keller is the chef of The French Laundry, a restaurant many consider to be the best in the world. When I lived in California, I tried for two months straight to get a reservation and never once was there an opening for any date in the future for folks like me who only know the public number to call. Here's the text of the daily menu's promise:

Two tasting menus are offered daily: a nine-course chef's tasting menu as well as a nine-course vegetable tasting menu. No single ingredient is ever repeated throughout the meal. What we want you to experience is that sense of surprise when you taste something so new, so exciting, so comforting, so delicious, you think "Wow" - and then it's gone. We serve a series of small courses meant to excite your mind, satisfy your appetite and pique your curiosity. We want you to say, "I wish I had just one more bite of that." And then the next plate arrives and the same thing happens, but in a different way, a whole new flavor, feel and emotion.

It's true that some of these ingredients are quite special--and the supplemental prices reflect that. But others are composed of garden-variety ingredients--tomatoes, avocados, cucumbers, eggplant. These ingredients don't need a major upgrade every three years, but in the hands of a talented and practiced chef, they can become such magic as motivates not only an excess demand for dinners at $300-$500/meal, but also inspires the purchase of wines that run up to $50,000/bottle (Screaming Eagle 1992 Cabernet Sauvignon).

Which returns us to the previously asked question: does your business really depend on having the $50,000 supplemental goodie available at the drop of a hat, or does it depend on being able to make magic nine courses at a time, transforming $30 worth of garden-variety ingredients into $300 masterpieces, dozens of times in a single evening? I think it's become clear that the rental houses own the former and the independent owner/operators need to focus on the latter.

You need enough quality to do you.

Which is why I donated my AF100s, sold my BMCC, shelved my EOS 5Dmk3s, and have focused entirely on making beauty with DRAGONs.

If you have the tools to do you, you are set. Trust yourself, and your clients will trust you.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I would estimate 3 generations of sensors forward from current 6k dragon. Then Dragon will be looked upon as old and the demand as a rental is probably not that hight... but if not broken it will still shoot images off course. I think it´s quite easy to see where things are going with sony a7 and sensor sensitivity, a few iterations from now things will probably have changes just as much as from first red sensor to the most current, or even more.

Probably, on a technical side. But sensors right now are pretty good. Yes, we might feel the noise is too heavy and so on, but it's so close to film which in some opinions is a "gold standard". It hasn't been the same for sensors in the past.

You need enough quality to do you.

Which is why I donated my AF100s, sold my BMCC, shelved my EOS 5Dmk3s, and have focused entirely on making beauty with DRAGONs.

If you have the tools to do you, you are set. Trust yourself, and your clients will trust you.

Good analogy with the restaurant. This is my feel as well, it's been such an over saturated market with cameras for quite some time now and non of them has really delivered the "good enough". With Dragon we have a sensor which delivers a perfect 4K resolution delivery and capabilities to continue over to rec2020 and other standards. If that's not good enough for a few years I don't know.

I really believe there is point of "good enough". And there is a valid point to master a camera instead of just continuing upgrading. Fincher did extensive work with the Viper before switching to Red and it seems he only did it because it drastically improved the workflow and quality. But if you get what you want with the camera you have and there isn't any real sign of degradation in quality compared to what the world wants and needs... it is in other words, good enough.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Epic and Scarlet getting OMOD support will definitely increase life expectancy.

 

[Darren Orange]

From everything I've seen, you could be shooting RED ONE. It really makes little difference because the camera while being important is honestly only one factor in the production. Seeing as we are talking about feature films here. Even RED ONE is plenty (if you take 4.5K into account). I don't believe you would see any meaningful difference between a film shot on RED ONE or Dragon.

To make my point, it would really require a radical change. If you compare 28 Days Later to 28 Weeks Later going to Super 16mm, 35mm and HDV had a meaningful impact on the image. 28 Days Later being shot on DV obviously shows a weakness there, such that if it had been shot on even a HDV camera it would have been a meaningful improvement of image. I don't think we can get this radical change from anything above 4-6K, MAYBE on a IMAX screen it makes sense but that would require printing to film at this time. The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises are some of the highest resolved images ever shown in cinema, you are scraping the limits of 35mm but its so close to the IMAX(even though the image itself is cropped) that it does not impact the perception...which might be the better question.

Anything 4K and up is going to be golden for a long while to come, I'd say 10 years, but even after that it'll still totally be fine. Hell Super 16mm is still pretty excellent look at Walking Dead.

 

[L. Langer]

I think you are fine for at least six years from now, assuming the camera holds up to use and media continues to be available. At this point, the only thing keeping people from continuing to use the still-very-capable RED ONE/MX cameras is the lack of appropriate recording media options and that isn't something that Epic Dragon will have to deal with any time soon, so you're good. Anything beyond that is up to the space time continuum and the whims of RED Digital Cinema Corporation. Consumers and cinemas won't be transitioning to 8K any time soon, so a 6K camera is good to go until 8K becomes the market standard for cinema.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Yes, this is true. But I think I'm speaking more in terms of you yourself as a client. If you are the production company making series and feature films, what quality do you feel you need for your own work delivered to the world.

To me, Weapon seems a huge step forward as to simplifying workflows. And also I love the idea of lower compression.

But for me to do the upgrade, it would be for the 8k.
Which I hope to do in due time. I can really see the benefit of that.

Which realistically (if I anything to go by) means that current Dragons should have about 2 more years of "current tech" time.

 

[Erich Roland]

Image wise im satisfied with Dragon and reckon I will be for 10 years.. However until I can shoot 1000fps and don't have to worry about black shading I'll be spending money to chase this!

10 years is a very long time. When I look back 10 years back to 2005. I was just ramping up our new rental facility. High def was beginning to catch on but much of it was Varicam 720p. Still no mini HD cameras yet, HVX-200 was I think another year out. Standard def was still a significant part of television production. The last 10 years have been a whirlwind of change.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

10 years is a very long time. When I look back 10 years back to 2005. I was just ramping up our new rental facility. High def was beginning to catch on but much of it was Varicam 720p. Still no mini HD cameras yet, HVX-200 was I think another year out. Standard def was still a significant part of television production. The last 10 years have been a whirlwind of change.

Yes, but a film like Zodiac still looks good today. The diminishing returns of resolution makes it even less problematic to be "just 4K" compared to Zodiacs "just 2K" today. So even if there's 8K around everywhere ten years from now, it's not as problematic for us who want super quality to watch 4K films compared to a 1080p film on a 4K screen. There's a lot of arguments for 8K based on theatre experiences and large screens, but most content in the future will be viewed on smaller screens, that's just a fact of where our media content is heading. So 4K will be more of a gold standard together with higher quality colors and DR. But even for that, we can use Aces Open EXR to manage retaining all data for future remasters.

So the tools we have with the Epic Dragon is probably holding better than all the cameras around 2005. What might be true ten years from now is light sensitive sensors with no noise and 20-25 stops of possible DR, maybe even the new tech involving sensors which can't be overexposed because they handle pixels individually. So yes, there are a lot of new tech that will increase the possibilities of image capture.

But in the end, for cinematic work, we paint with light so we will always need light, therefor the cameras we have today might hold better ten years from now than cameras from ten years back.

 

[Owen Rennie]

Yes, but a film like Zodiac still looks good today. The diminishing returns of resolution makes it even less problematic to be "just 4K" compared to Zodiacs "just 2K" today. So even if there's 8K around everywhere ten years from now, it's not as problematic for us who want super quality to watch 4K films compared to a 1080p film on a 4K screen. There's a lot of arguments for 8K based on theatre experiences and large screens, but most content in the future will be viewed on smaller screens, that's just a fact of where our media content is heading. So 4K will be more of a gold standard together with higher quality colors and DR. But even for that, we can use Aces Open EXR to manage retaining all data for future remasters.

So the tools we have with the Epic Dragon is probably holding better than all the cameras around 2005. What might be true ten years from now is light sensitive sensors with no noise and 20-25 stops of possible DR, maybe even the new tech involving sensors which can't be overexposed because they handle pixels individually. So yes, there are a lot of new tech that will increase the possibilities of image capture.

But in the end, for cinematic work, we paint with light so we will always need light, therefor the cameras we have today might hold better ten years from now than cameras from ten years back.

Well said!

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

By the time 8K resolution is needed in any normal persons production Weapon will feel like my Red One today. There will be what? 4 or 5 new RED cameras sitting above Weapon?