Epic Disappointment

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

i think red has upgrading their manufacturing capabilities, because the lag times have been improving and will be able to handle the situation better then previously. and i think people knew that serial numbers would be the way the system works and knew going into it where they might fall in the proverbial update cycle. i mean by that logic as the baby brother model, i knew that it'd take me even longer. so i bought a used one with as low a serial as i could find. i also think stressing to be the first on the block is silly, especially when no consumers in our country own 4k tvs yet. the red one might be EOL but its not out of date. believe me i would have loved to have got it BT at these prices over a scarlet. i am comfortable not keeping up with the the rental houses..

All this doesn't affect me personally. I am done with my UCLA Screenwriting program. I am working out the Resolve Dailies + AVID MC workflow. I'm focused on learning the EPIC I have, and kitting it out. I'm not saying what I'm saying for me.

I'm just saying that this has different impact on different people and its not as simple as some of us might think. As much as we want RED to thrive, we do want the customers to ALSO thrive. That's all. No point fighting between ourselves is all. All for RED. RED for all.

On that note... back to the election news. From one divided group of people to another...

 

[Brian Merlen]

well i dont mean to be overly critical and i am sorry if i came off too strong guys, its just somewhat disheartening to read all this knowing your upgrade pricing is super cheap, your serials are low, and that your camera is still worth wayy more then the currently sold ones. i am just saying reds hold their value better then any camera on the market. even now you cannot lose...the only way to lose is to sell out now and not go for the dragon... and to not recognize what your really have which is:

i have seen people sell non upgraded reds at the next model prices simply because its not "executed". so really you can sell your cameras for primo dollars still, for the simple fact they will upgrade to dragon much faster then people will start buying dragons who are non epic owners. your investment is still safe, selling for less is crazy when you know the camera is still worth full value trade in:banghead:

this should def affect the price...your cameras have always been worth 100 percent of what you paid previously with red, why would it change now with this update? i doubt they are going to make your trade ins cheap after this much of a backlash over a liquidation of old tech... you will be fine. i don't think an epic sold today with serial 17000 is as valuable as the ones you guys bought...

 

[Johnny Friday]

Well, i feel different then...i wish we had Epic at $15k instead of $19k....Everyone keeps talking about loss on epic...but with a new sensor, doesn't seem so....breathe of new life into the cam for another few years.

 

[Andy Roberts]

I've never even thought about selling my Epic. That is why I bought into Red so that I could upgrade and not lose the investment. If Red had come out with a new camera with Dragon's specs for $35K and lowered the EpicX down to $25K with no upgrade path, don't you see how much THAT would sting/hurt? The lego/upgradeable system Red has developed is a completely different asset purchase with different economic decisions. For me, it was the right one and I think the only thing hurting Red's brand now is all these caustic threads with provocative titles. Any renter coming to look at RedUser is suddenly going to be confronted with a boatload of negativity. If I were Jim, I would delete every one of these threads that starts because the frustrations of a few aren't worth damaging the brand's strength for the rest of us.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I've never even thought about selling my Epic. That is why I bought into Red so that I could upgrade and not lose the investment. If Red had come out with a new camera with Dragon's specs for $35K and lowered the EpicX down to $25K with no upgrade path, don't you see how much THAT would sting/hurt? The lego/upgradeable system Red has developed is a completely different asset purchase with different economic decisions. For me, it was the right one and I think the only thing hurting Red's brand now is all these caustic threads with provocative titles. Any renter coming to look at RedUser is suddenly going to be confronted with a boatload of negativity. If I were Jim, I would delete every one of these threads that starts because the frustrations of a few aren't worth damaging the brand's strength for the rest of us.

+1 dead on...

 

[Michael Brennan]

Isn't "democratisation of the industry" what everyone wanted?



Mike Brennan
DP
Melbounre

 

[Randall Brown]

@David, hang in there buddy. There are some of us out here that get it, and agree. It's a lot of us who have some real $$$ invested. We have over $150k+ in red. (EpicM, EpicX, Scarlet, and 2 EpicX on order), basically own everything they make. Definitely makes one think a bit different about the potential blind faith we have placed in how they manage their ecosystem. Luckily we keep getting in early-ish and that's paid off for us. Now we for sure know to never get in mid-cycle. I couldnt imagine having a bank note, and seeing that payment each month. ouch man.

But the bigger question for me now, is what has Red second guessing their price position in the market. Jim is a billionaire businessman. For those of you that think this was just charity to give back to buyers are nuts. Some act of kindness. No way. This has piqued my interest to really look at the bigger picture of what does Red want it's future business model/ position in market to be? Seems responsive to the competition to drop the price post Sony announcement, seems like it made Red blink. Odd.

Anyway, cheers to all in this discussion. I'd like people to post how much they have invested with Red before they off their opinion on this, may help us know where you are coming from.

 

[Harcharan Singh]

SAME HERE

SAME HERE

Anyway, cheers to all in this discussion. I'd like people to post how much they have invested with Red before they off their opinion on this, may help us know where you are coming from.

Same here(please see my signature)....But I am going to increase few more EPIC's into our kitty to average out the cost and offer good rates and packages to my customers..offer multicam options....

Harcharan

 

[Jeff Whitehurst]

I invested as much as I thought appropriate to get what I needed, which I think is probably true for everyone who bought a RED.
Here's what I keep wondering. Can anyone say for sure that RED has simply second guessed it's price position in the market, or are they up to something bigger? A plan that continues the vector of - Release a new sensor upgrade compatible with the current model, introduce a new model with the now current sensor, repeat? They've announced that the Epic-X is cheaper and upgradeable, but on what basis could anyone say that there won't soon be another Dragon enabled camera besides an Epic with a Dragon upgrade? NAB 2013? Couldn't this price reduction simply be a move to make way for even more capable cameras than an Dragon upgraded Epic which retains this coveted high price point? The Epic-X or Epic with Dragon might be the new middle ground...
"We could of released a brand new camera model for alot cheaper that did the same or more"
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...PORTANT-post&p=1084085&viewfull=1#post1084085

 

[Elsie N]

...

Anyway, cheers to all in this discussion. I'd like people to post how much they have invested with Red before they off their opinion on this, may help us know where you are coming from.

Better still... post what percentage of your income is spent on RED products and other accompanying necessities. I'll go first and low-ball and say I've spent 90% of my income over the past 5 years if I include computers, software etc. that makes it all work. The Epics are the only part of that equation that I could recoup most of my cost on, but I was Stage 2 and Stage 3. Sold my Stage 2 R-1 shortly after signing up so I could get the Epic sooner.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

IF this is indeed what RED is doing, the implication would be that one fine day, EPICs will start shipping with DRAGON inside for 26K. Upgrades on existing EPICs can then take a long time. I can't imagine RED will delay shipment of Dragon-installed EPICs until all current EPIC owners who want a DRAGON update, get one.

So, people who bought EPICs for stage 4 prices (+ 6K for an upgrade) will NOT have Dragon for the long time it'll take to upgrade all existing EPICs (chip + ASICs), while those who shell out 26K will get a Dragon equipped EPIC within days.

IF what you say is correct, does this seem plausible to you? If it is, does it sound fair to you?

Does anyone recall how/why the Epic-M program came about?

 

[Elsie N]

Does anyone recall how/why the Epic-M program came about?

They began making and selling the Epic M as a test bed, IMO, for making Epic in the U.S. Plus, there were only x amount of necessary parts on hand to complete a camera... too few to supply the Epic X queue fairly, and they had to machine what else was needed to finish the product. That was more costly and they charged more for it and called it the M for "machined."

After parts (that were holding up production of the X) became available, the demand was still strong for the upscale Epic M so they continued to make what probably became a more profitable line. My thinking is this added cash flow helped payoff the R&D costs and gave us a camera with a price more in line with production cost that we have today.

 

[Elsie N]

I guess most people think the EPIC brain will be around forever. Even the brain will have an upgrade sooner or later. Without the upgrade being subsidized by RED... that will be a huge hit for most folks. This modularity concept is not so grand when you think of it. Like the C500 and the F55 have 4k monitoring... the RED EPIC doesn't... sure RED could build a module for that... but now you have a much larger brain with a module for such an essential feature.

Just would like to offer another perspective here that some heavy users or renters may not be considering. As well built as the Epic is, the amount of hours it is used is a deciding factor in how a camera holds its value.

A sensor, especially one that has been exposed to who knows what conditions and whatever light intensity is out there, or however many voltage spikes etc., probably loses some ability through usage. I know that when RED was doing the trade-in program there were many complaining that their sound boards etc. were being replaced and their trade-in discounted somewhat.

What I'm saying is that most Epics in the wild are probably over 6 months old and have a lot of "mileage" on them. It's just possible that many of the cameras would not be worth more than the discounted price, even if it had never happened.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

So, according that logic, a 35K new camera was 19K well-used. What is a well-used camera worth when the new one is now 19K?

 

[Elsie N]

So, according that logic, a 35K new camera was 19K well-used. What is a well-used camera worth when the new one is now 19K?

Probably about the same percentage drop. Of course, since the Dragon will be like a refurbish, the value will rise to almost new Dragon price once the upgrade is complete.


EDIT: Of course, lower numbered cameras will retain more of their value due to position in the Dragon upgrade queue.

And for me personally, I wouldn't mind RED charging $8,000 for the first couple of hundred sensor upgrades, $6,000 for the next 3 or 4 hundred, then $4,000 for the rest. Cameras bought at the new pricing would remain $6,000 for the Dragon.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Gentlemen,

I just got a RAW file from the C500 to play with, from one of beta testers who happens to be a friend. All I can say is the Canon RAW is not "as" RAW as RED's. It is only 10 bit from the outset and it has white balance and contrast already baked in, IMHO, pretty shity implementation. It is only RAW in as much as the debayering has not yet been done, but other than that, a bit of a fraud I think. As for Sony's RAW, don't know anything about it except that it requires an external module, an idea I always hated, not least of which, due to how expensive they are. People go around saying Sony is asking their customers what they should charge for the F5/55 and all I can do is laugh at the notion. Those cameras won't be cheap, and if somehow they lower the brain prices from the estimates already going around, the accessories will remain stratospherically high. That is part of Sony's DNA, just as making awesome sensors and pretty images right off the box are.

AS for 4K monitoring, don't know that I really care for, or need that, on set. Just give me a clean, sharp 1080 or 2K path that I can see on a small monitor and that is crisp enough to aid with focusing, and let me be, don't burden me with big, expensive monitors for crying outloud. I cannot even begin to imagine what Sony's 4k monitoring "solutions" will cost, what with their 1080p OLED 17" monitors still going for thousands of $$$ shame on them really. I am not defending RED, in fact, have not mentioned them in this post, but to praise the marketing policies and pricing structures of Sony et al is a dangerous idea if one plans to lay eggs in the baskets of those companies. I've owned more Sony cameras than I can remember, still own 5 of them, and have always LOVED the Sony look, but Sony has done me SO wrong with their bullshit it is not even funny, quite sad actually. So disparage RED all you want, I will respect the right to do so, but don't do yourselves the disservice of thinking that Sony, and Canon in particular, have your interests anywhere near in the vicinity of their minds when making decisions. The f...ing C300 records 8 bit at a paltry 50 Mbps, and who cares if that's good enough for the BBC really, it is a shity codec, the C100 is even worse, and the C500's RAW is a laugh to the face....but that's just me of course....

For better or worse, RED has always striven to give the most technology for the least money, however offensive that idea is to some, while the Japanese big iron has done exactly the opposite, endearing as it is to so many. How many centuries will it for Panasonic to release a S35 sensor, they the pioneers of 720p and 1/3" sensors? And don't mention the words "10 bit" and "onboard" in the same sentence in the presence of a Sony exec or he'll break down with cold sweats and collapse to the floor in an uncontrollable fit of diarrhea. As for Canon, good luck with them cameras, if you can figure which one to buy...