EPIC and Alexa...

[Shane Betts]

EPIC supports 1.5GHz HD-SDI (as used on RED ONE), plus 3GHz HD-SDI. The latter replaces "dual link" with a single BNC cable.

1.5GHz mode allows 1280 x 720p 4:2:2 at 50 or 60 fps, or 1920 x 1080p 4:2:2 at 24, 25 or 30 fps, both in record and playback.

3GHz mode adds 1920 x 1080p 4:4:4 (RGB) at 24, 25 or 30 fps and 1920 x 1080p 4:2:2 at 50 or 60 fps, both in record and playback.

Sorry to nitpick, but shouldn't that read 1.5 and 3 Gb/s rather than GHz?

Either way it's great. How's the jitter looking?

 

[Shane Betts]

For Reference:

Wow! That's quite a form factor difference. Whilst the Arri is obviously very nicely balanced, the size difference is staggering.

So, let me see.

The camera on the right is cheaper.
The camera on the right has more resolution.
The camera on the right shoots more frame rates.
The camera on the right will control electronic stills lenses.
The camera on the right shoots stills.
The camera on the right is just over a third the weight.
The camera on the right shoots RAW to CF card, (plus SSD and HDD - all onboard with added weight, size and cost).
The camera on the right has post support for 5K RAW for free.
The camera on the right will do autofocus in stills mode.
The camera on the right can be focussed via a remote touch screen in motion capture.
The camera on the right has less and better noise in the blacks.
The camera on the right will, at some stage, offer HDR mode.
The camera on the right offers 2k 4444 monitoring.

The camera on the left has more DR.
The camera on the left will record to ProRes.
The camera on the left is an Arriflex.

Hmmm

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Shane, please bare in mind that the Epic in this picture does not have any of the modules attached that you need for a full production camera setup. One example is the missing SDI out which the Alexa has. Interesting comparison though.

Hans

 

[Wouter Portegijs]

How far ahead does the roadmap go?

Is it just a sensor program right now or do you have some ideas about the bodies these things are going to come in?

(a yes/no question, obviously it's too soon to share any details/plans)

If I understand Red's policy correctly... It is not something you should worry over.

They promised that the red one would not become obsolete.... they did not change their mind but came to the conclusion that it would be smarter to change the formfactor. And felt bad about it, because of that offered a full reimbursement on an new epic.

Now they <strikethrough>have</strikethrough>are finishing the design of a full modular system so whatever new sensor is coming will fit all the other stuff.... So what it looks like something not to big(they proven that) that has a lensmount in front and fit all the red accessories.

p.s. probably in the same rugged style they used before, so it will look quite solid.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Redcode is raw sensor data, any shifting is happening afterwards. .

If that was true then black shading could be done at a later date.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

One example is the missing SDI out which the Alexa has.

Hans

Hans,

sorry to correct you but EPIC base body unit has HD-SDI out

HD-SDI out from EPIC base body module.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans,

sorry to correct you but EPIC base body unit has HD-SDI out

HD-SDI out from EPIC base body module.

Even better. Thanks for pointing me to it.

Hans

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Even better. Thanks for pointing me to it.

Hans

That's one of many reasons I'm looking forward to get Epic that its base body module has about 6 lbs (2.7 kg)

just because I'm mostly a kind of "backpack" shooter driving to find untouched sort of natural and real life on a city or mountain bike.

Now I would like to add something more about the latest CNC sort of discussion here and must say that I like very much my "Bad Boy" city

bike that happened to be handmade in USA by Cannondale.

That means if EPIC is going to be mainly made in USA that's could be really good for all of us.

Also gears, breaks and sprockets on my "Bad Boy" are from Shimano that made in Japan and it's a sort of crap.

If I need to get better than those parts I have to pay for a bike about 15x to 20x times more (btw. a Bad Boy costs about 1.000 Euros).

Mostly those bikes are handmade in Italy, Switzerland, or...

Go back to Alexa I could have it right now on my table here if it would cost about 25,000 Euro.

Maybe it would cost 25,000 Euros tomorrow in a second hand market when one day whole digital cinema world is flooded by Epic and Scarlet,...

That means Alexa is over priced and I do not want to pay extra for the price that consists feeding a huge Arri's bureaucracy

and expensive advertising campaign that's also a big part of Alexa's high price.

Just to compare this with a small shape of RED Digital Cinema Company and that's one of reasons their products are cheaper and more competitive.

 

[Shane Betts]

Shane, please bare in mind that the Epic in this picture does not have any of the modules attached that you need for a full production camera setup. One example is the missing SDI out which the Alexa has. Interesting comparison though.
Hans

But a fair point nonetheless. I'm happy to be corrected on any of this stuff.

Two points. Firstly, the Epic, as pictured, could shoot (right now on 16GB cards - 64GB soon) about 7(?) mins of 5k 24fps with nothing more attached. And the weight figures are with battery, handle, screen etc. so that's actually a working camera. Sure, you might add stuff to it on a production - at times just to make it heavier for more stability - but you have the choice.

Secondly, someone might like to clarify this to me, but is the Alexa, as pictured, capable of recording 2k RAW? Or ProRes? Or is there more required? (Not smartarse rhetorical questions, I honestly don't know).

The Alexa certainly looks very nice to hand hold for a big production camera. Much better than the R1 from what I can see. But the sheer difference in size and weight, coupled with the modular approach is just really hard to ignore.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

The Alexa certainly looks very nice to hand hold for a big production camera. Much better than the R1 from what I can see. But the sheer difference in size and weight, coupled with the modular approach is just really hard to ignore.

Alexa is not for handheld shots at all. This is a big bluff of their advertising campaign, all those photos with Alexa handheld are just a bit fake because you could do it for a minute or two but later ask your back hot it feels...

Why?

Just count like this Alexa with EVF weights 6,9kg/15,2 lbs about the same as RED1-MX with EVF

especially the newest lightweight Bomb EVF (RED1 body 10 lbs/4,5kg that is lighter than Alexa's).

I had ET Mantis and EasyRig 3 Cine 700 to handle my RED1-MX fully loaded with old EVF, battery,

RED drive, PreMix (Sound Devices), Rode NTG3 mic, Arri MFF-1 altogether with rods and additional mounts.

But don't forget that I was shooting with lightweight still primes and zooms.

 

[Shane Betts]

Oops! Sorry, I forgot one.

The camera on the left is available three or four months(?) earlier.

 

[Shane Betts]

I had ET Mantis and EasyRig 3 Cine 700 to handle my RED1-MX fully loaded with old EVF, battery,

Yes, we have the Allstar shoulder mount (just modding it for the Sachtler wedge plate) ... But those are add-ons. And the 16SR has a flat bottom like the Red One... Now, Aaton. There's a comfortable camera.

The Arri reminds me of a 1970's Ikegami - or an LDK90 with a shoulder pad.

To be clear here, the Canon XL-1 was a hell of a lot lighter than an Epic and was probably the least comfortable camera you could ever use, because it was all in front of the shoulder. But the mock-ups I've seen of the Epic rigged for shoulder duty look promising. That modular approach.

 

[Steve G]

Alexa is not for handheld shots at all. This is a big bluff of their advertising campaign, all those photos with Alexa handheld are just a bit fake because you could do it for a minute or two but later ask your back hot it feels...

Nonsense.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Alexa is not for handheld shots at all. This is a big bluff of their advertising campaign, all those photos with Alexa handheld are just a bit fake because you could do it for a minute or two but later ask your back hot it feels...

I had a fully equipped Alexa mock-up on my shoulder and found it pretty balanced and well designed for hand-held shooting. The weight was in the realm of a Sony HDCAM. Not light but easily doable.

There is one thing that Alexa can do much better than the RedOne. You can take it off the tripod and put it conveniently on your shoulder without an ET-Mantis or anything like this. For people who shoot documentaries a quick switch form sticks to shoulder is very important. The RedOne is in this regard pretty cumbersome and a heavy mother.

Of course the Epic will be lighter than the Alexa. But in the configuration shown on the comparison picture with Epic I cannot shoot off my shoulder. I have to use it as a palm-video camera. While this is an interesting possibility I know that I need a production configuration that allows me too shoot conveniently handheld and on the tripod with the possibility to switch in seconds.

In a fully loaded production configuration with a 100 Ah battery, two modules, EVF, LCD, mattebox, FF, and a small zoom or a PL-prime Epic will be probably still lighter than Alexa but not in a 2:1 ratio. Then ergonomics become more important than the sheer weight. I'm sure that Red will address this sufficiently.

Hans

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Sounds reasonable. When shooting for 16:9 HD, this 2880 x 1620 RAW pixel count is what Scarlet 2/3" uses... for similar ease of scaling reasons.

back to resolution...
if this is the resolution that will be used for Scarlet 2/3" 16:9 HD, will resolution mesurement be the same like Alexa's? when recording 1080p?

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Jarred - was the Epic seriously able to stand on the table by itself like that? I'd expect it to be very front-heavy with the RPPs on. Also - any idea if the 18mm RPP will work on the Alexa?

 

[Subhadip Sen]

back to resolution...
if this is the resolution that will be used for Scarlet 2/3" 16:9 HD, will resolution mesurement be the same like Alexa's? when recording 1080p?

Yes, Scarlet 2/3" 16:9 will be 2880x1620, from what we know.

The size comparison is quite startling. However, it is likely many film traditionalists would prefer the Arri form factor. It is just more like an Arriflex 35mm camera. It is simple and stripped down, none of the hi-tech gizmos included in Epic. The Epic just looks like a box from a sci-fi movie than a 5K digital cinema camera. For some of us it is absolutely wonderful. There will be skeptics though, especially traditionalists, but that is expected for every great invention. I do imagine we will look back at the Epic several decades in the future and say "This was the beginning of the modern digital cinema camera". Jim & co. are creating a legacy here. These are truly cameras unlike any other. Things like the REDMote (and compatibility with other Wi-fi enabled devices) can change the way we shoot films, yet this is something simply not expected of cameras.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Nonsense.

Some of watchdog's are always pissed when I say something real about...

There is one thing that Alexa can do much better than the RedOne. You can take it off the tripod and put it conveniently on your shoulder without an ET-Mantis or anything like this. For people who shoot documentaries a quick switch form sticks to shoulder is very important. The RedOne is in this regard pretty cumbersome and a heavy mother.

Hans

hans,

sorry again but must correct you.

BTW, when you have a camera on tripod you would need a base plate (Arri, etc...) to slide it on (Arri, etc...) dovetail.

That means bas plates are mostly attached with minimum two screws on a camera.

Then you would need time to unscrew it.

With ET Mantis is working very easy bust because you can take your camera with base plate

from a tripod and simply slide it into ET Mantis base. That's it.

RED1 MX with BeBob Rouge Battery Swap+RED Drive on a back, RED body in a middle and for example Cooke 15-40mm T2.0 CXX Zoom Lens is perfectly balanced system for handheld.

For longer shoulder handling I recommend use of ET mantis together with EasyRig 3 Cine 700 and then you are able

and ready to shoot with additional wireless focus system (AC needed and included) for about an hour or more without any interruption.

With Alexa you can't starting with a time limited recording media, etc,...

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Yes, Scarlet 2/3" 16:9 will be 2880x1620, from what we know.

thanks, but my question is about estimate resolution mesurement like the alexa's 1.6K.. will scarlet mesure the same or it will pass that no.?

 

[Subhadip Sen]

thanks, but my question is about estimate resolution mesurement like the alexa's 1.6K.. will scarlet mesure the same or it will pass that no.?

Graeme has stated in the past that Scarlet 2/3" 3K footage is just under 2.5K luma resolved. So, a fair guess would be 16:9 being around 2.3K. The M-X debayer is about 80% of the original resolution currently, and 80% of 2.88K is 2.3K as well. So, a reasonable answer to your question would be 2.3K, which happens to be roughly twice the resolution of 1.6K.