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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC and Alexa...

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Crafted Image Vs. Available Light

Crafted Image Vs. Available Light

sergio arguello said:
well if you know how to light and especially expose a film stock either neg and especially pos stock then i would say resolution.Now if you plan to build the camera point and shoot without to much lighting then all the DR you can get will be helpful.

be very careful DP's that scream "more DR" because IMHO its the beginning of the end of our job and looks will be post established by your colorist du jour.

just saying
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Mr. Arguello has put his finger on two things at the core of this discussion that others have failed to emphasize:

1) It is the duty of the cinematographer to master his/her materials. To understand their response to light. This was easier when there was only one color neg. film stock, a few B&W emulsions and one kind of vacuum tube based video sensor. Things have changed a bit since then, but the need for continuous testing and sharing of information in the name of diffusion of knowledge (as pointed out by John DeBoer of Sim Video), in order to discharge that duty will never change.
Simply put, cinematographers must intimately understand each imaging system in order to choose the right tool for the job at hand. I personally think it misguided to become a staunch partisan of any one system if you are a freelance professional.

2) All photographic systems contain compromise. None responds to light as our eyes do. An important question arises: what do you plan to use a particular system for ? Are you making a war documentary or remaking Antony and Cleopatra. The EPIC system is clearly intended for making cinema images more than other uses. Fiction film makers have more control over things like lighting contrast and subject contrast ratios than people working on other kinds of projects. Every fiction project is not a mega-epic, but the ability to hold detail in the shadows would seem to be more use to low-budget projects than holding the last shred of highlight information. Particularly if it is doing so at a superior resolution level.

Note that contrast in EPIC's circle chart is higher than the comparison image. This can be called "micro contrast" and can be thought of as a different aspect of dynamic range. Cinema images look best if they deliver the greatest micro contrast in the 40-60 line pair/mm range. This is the rough basis for MTF response curves, but you can learn to interpret it by eye via the concept of micro contrast. Look for maximum contrast handling within the most meaningful resolution range. The two attributes must be balanced. Pursuit of extremes of either parameter without regard to the other is not useful. At least that's how the fellow who designed the Primo lenses for PV explained it to myself and others (more or less).

In other words, within the resolution range that is most meaningful for cinematic images, it could be argued that EPIC shows better DR, since it seems to deliver a blacker black at the same spatial frequency as the comparison example (Alexa). Velvety blacks anybody ?

Seems to me that RED has ably worked the compromises inherent in EPIC firmly to the advantage of fiction filmmakers. Just my 2-cents from a guy with 25 yrs. on the tech side of the line.

Respectfully,
 
Charles, well put.

And Matt, valid points, but I don't think Jim is trying to "corner" any markets, but participate in them-- but more primarily to make an offering to photographic creators that raises the bar. I see his philosophy more as build it and if it's good, they will come -- and I think the workflow issues will gradually evaporate, and those who can deal with those at present, reap the rewards. It strikes me Red is trying to keep flowing and evolving while providing more and more stability. There's always a trade-off. Perfect stability means little or no innovaction. I think Red is becoming more and more balanced and we all are the beneficiaries.
 
SirGear said:
Simply put, cinematographers must intimately understand each imaging system in order to choose the right tool for the job at hand. I personally think it misguided to become a staunch partisan of any one system if you are a freelance professional.
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On the other hand if you become a master of one system you might be able to get it to do tricks that nobody else can. There is the "right tool for the job" but there's also "master of the ship".

RED might be the best tool for a job but the best tool is the one you can most adeptly wield.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
You can map any dynamic range to any monitoring device. You could map 35 stops to a 4bit display.
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You could map 10000 stops to a 1 bit display, what point are you making? :) The problem I see is determining how to effectively map those 13.5 stops into the monitoring device as best as possible. Clearly this EPIC/Alexa problem to me is very similar to when people try and compare two images exposed at different settings. It's hard to do. Given we've not had digital devices prevalent with a huge dynamic range, this is certainly and interesting part of monitoring and begs the question of what options should there be.

Personally, I like the idea of using a logarithmic scale similar to film exposure so I can see how the top and bottom end compress down. Some people surely will want linear, or even other methods. Similar to how many people want different types of zebra settings for different levels of over/under exposure. (and/or false color and such).

Very cool.
 
Graham_C said:
Jim,if you are willing to say,Are these sensors that we havn`t heard of yet,or those in the pipework like Monstro?
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The one lined up after Monstro. Monstro is in early testing right now... the next one is just coming out of design. Sensor development doesn't happen overnight.

Jim
 
Jim, does RED invent new technology for creating these sensors or you use the available techs from other sensor companies?
and what other companies do for the same purpose of having a sensor for their newly designed cameras?
just a stupid question.. but just wondering...
 
Mohammed El Sharqawy said:
Jim, does RED invent new technology for creating these sensors or you use the available techs from other sensor companies?
just a stupid question.. but just wondering...
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What company have you seen with this sensor technology? :-)

Jim
 
In my dreams I hear these words.....

"Reds soon to be released QUANTUM SENSOR
will have 16 Stops of Dynamic Range, and require
that you feed it film stock or it gets irritable."


:blink::blink::blink:
:drool5::drool5::drool5:
:emote_hippie::emote_hippie:
 
non of course.. or I can say similarly.. old time dalsa.. but, maybe other sensor company develope such sensors specially and proprietary for RED??
I'll be much more proud of RED if they are developing their sensors inside the house.. :-)
 
Jannard said:
What company have you seen with this sensor technology? :-)

Jim
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Mr Jannard

Curious as to how/why these conversations always turn into what's coming in the future. I have the utmost respect for the way which you have built a company that changed digital imaging forever, but as a DP I must use the tools available to me for a certain job, and comparison and testing is part of how we make our choice. I am certain that Sony, and Arri have their future product development plans, but we gotta work with what we have now. It seems that the discussion always veers towards future initiatives whenever there is a question of Red's, current offering not winning hands down. No disrespect meant just curious.
 
Jannard said:
The one lined up after Monstro. Monstro is in early testing right now... the next one is just coming out of design. Sensor development doesn't happen overnight.

Jim
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Thanks for your answer Jim..It`s inspiring and fun to be able to be `involved`at such a grass roots level.I`m sure,well certain actually, that we could`nt ask and get such an answer from the head of Canon or Sony,in a realtime forum.
Much appreciated.
 
Jannard said:
The one lined up after Monstro. Monstro is in early testing right now... the next one is just coming out of design. Sensor development doesn't happen overnight.

Jim
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How far ahead does the roadmap go?

Is it just a sensor program right now or do you have some ideas about the bodies these things are going to come in?

(a yes/no question, obviously it's too soon to share any details/plans)
 
Ed Carlton said:
Mr Jannard

Curious as to how/why these conversations always turn into what's coming in the future. I have the utmost respect for the way which you have built a company that changed digital imaging forever, but as a DP I must use the tools available to me for a certain job, and comparison and testing is part of how we make our choice. I am certain that Sony, and Arri have their future product development plans, but we gotta work with what we have now. It seems that the discussion always veers towards future initiatives whenever there is a question of Red's, current offering not winning hands down. No disrespect meant just curious.
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No disrespect meant by jumping in here, but how would you go about creating a new Arri, or a new Panavision, and at the same time a new company completely different to those?

It certainly requires looking forward a heck of a lot, cause there is a heck of a lot still ahead of him to accomplish. RED may be well on it's way, and it isn't going anywhere, but big names get built on staying power.

Many of us have a very good idea of what to expect, and it isn't hard since Jim tells us himself repeatedly, despite how hard it must be to come out and say certain things sometimes.

The way I look at it, you take the good with the bad, and there is a heck of a lot of good to offset delays. In more simple terms, good things don't come easy, and red is doing some really goooood stuff.

0.02

Jannard said:
The one lined up after Monstro. Monstro is in early testing right now... the next one is just coming out of design. Sensor development doesn't happen overnight.

Jim
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So you already got a design for 645, a.k.a. RED's digital IMAX (in an EPIC sized body!!)? :yikes:
 
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