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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ENG and Cinema...

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Actually I want the reverse. Ease off on the compression if we only want to shoot 24fps. It seems like the "pipe" is larger than might have been let on earlier. For select VFX shots I would like the option to shoot at 40MBs.
 
Actually I want the reverse. Ease off on the compression if we only want to shoot 24fps. It seems like the "pipe" is larger than might have been let on earlier. For select VFX shots I would like the option to shoot at 40MBs.
Ah, sorry for the confusion... I see what you were meaning. Of course, that opens the door for "if we can still shoot at 27MBs, can we pump out more fps?" :tongue:
 
Jim Jannard #34
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80544&page=3
"If 35mm DOF is a concern, shoot S16mm lenses and a windowed 2k"

We can have it all with the 2k higher framerate
In that post, he means if you're concerned about working with 35mm DOF (as it's much more shallow and tricky to deal with than any 1/3" or 2/3" chip camera), shoot windowed 2K with S16mm lenses. Many of us WANT the shallow DOF, however, why is why 2K/windowed won't cut it.
 
In that post, he means if you're concerned about working with 35mm DOF (as it's much more shallow and tricky to deal with than any 1/3" or 2/3" chip camera), shoot windowed 2K with S16mm lenses. Many of us WANT the shallow DOF, however, why is why 2K/windowed won't cut it.

ok, i learn something everyday- or couple of posts these days
 
A benefit to 2K windowed dof in concerns to slow mo is that if your focus puller isn't the greatest at hitting his marks during the take he has a little leeway in windowed mode with the deeper S16mm dof.
 
A benefit to 2K windowed dof in concerns to slow mo is that if your focus puller isn't the greatest at hitting his marks during the take he has a little leeway in windowed mode with the deeper S16mm dof.
Hehe, of course... but then again he has an even better chance of hitting the marks with a Varicam or F900! If you want 35mm DOF, you also have to learn to deal with it. That's just par for the course.
 
My last Emmy Award was for a documentary, and each year when I judge multiple national Emmy Awards categories for directing and cinematography, whithin many of those genres, I specifically look for 35mm DOF and off-speed shooting as "frosting on the cake", even if the rest of the production was shot at 24fps and/or with medum to deep DOF. We see this issue differently.

Ah but (just got back from pub so sorry for any slurred speach)...

If they're shooting 35mm DOF off-speed, then it's either on 35mm (in which case not EFP) or it's using an adaptor - the use of which is rare enough that I don't think it warrants the 1080p60 with 35mm DOF feature at the expense of 2K @ 100fps.
 
If they're shooting 35mm DOF off-speed, then it's either on 35mm (in which case not EFP) or it's using an adaptor - the use of which is rare enough that I don't think it warrants the 1080p60 with 35mm DOF feature at the expense of 2K @ 100fps.

I think you're beginning to back yourself into a corner because the reality is that RED presents for the first time a true digital alternative to 35mm film and certainly there are countless productions (not intended for any kind of theatrical release) which normally shoot 35mm and require offspeed shooting (television programs and music videos are the big ones that come to mind).

Take a show like "24," which is shot on 35mm and is extremely cinematic in quality. It's shot on film - meaning it's not electronic field production - but what would you call it if it was shot in 4K RAW with RED instead? There certainly is the provision for this to happen (and most likely will), so is it all of a sudden EFP now because it's shot with a digital recorder instead of film? And if so, what are you going to do about offspeed shooting then? (Okay, perhaps 24 is a bad example because it's a "realtime" program and they don't do any offspeed shooting, :tongue: but surely you get the point.) There are a myriad of productions out there which would shoot this way and require higher speed shooting and are not "cinema" projects.

I don't think it's unreasonable, then, to want to get high speed shooting off of the full sensor when everything else you are shooting is with the full sensor to begin with. Are you willing to switch to 16mm image characteristics (and have to pay for/carry around extra glass) just to get your slow motion shots? It doesn't mean that the windowed format is useless, just that there are many of us who are interested in RED because of it's 35mm sensor capability. As of right now, the only way to get higher than 30p from the full sensor is by shooting 1080p. It's not just a legacy format, it's a necessity until we can cram more fps into the onboard 4K spec or a newer version of the camera comes along.
 
Haakon, with the change in image quality from 4K Redcode to 1080P, I find the 35mm dof of the 1080P RGB mode quite useless.

After seeing the 4K presentation time and time again, then seeing the downsampled 1080P version of Crossing (which still looks great, but again, close but no cigar) I don't see myself utilizing the 1080P recording mode too often if ever.

Now if you plan on delivering everything and projecting everything at 1080P (Blu Ray and home theater 1080P projection) then 1080P RGB and its 35mm dof in addition to 60fps sounds great.

I don't find much comfort in mixing and matching a 4K image with a 1080P image whereas 2K (with a S16 dof or not) is much more appealing.

If the dof in windowed mode is a problem, take a few steps back and pop on a longer lens to match. (Sure this won't work when limited by space)
 
After seeing the 4K presentation time and time again, then seeing the downsampled 1080P version of Crossing (which still looks great, but again, close but no cigar) I don't see myself utilizing the 1080P recording mode too often if ever.
That's fine, but how are you going to deal with shooting slow motion in your "all 4K all the time" workflow? The reality is that 4K maxes out at 30p onboard, so for offspeed shooting you have to make a choice: do you shoot full-frame in 1080 or windowed in 2K? The difference in resolution between those formats is negligable, and I vote for keeping 1080 (even at the expense of even higher framerates in 2K), because at least then your footage is shot with the entire sensor and not a centered crop.
 
full-frame in 1080 or windowed in 2K? The difference in resolution between those formats is negligable.

That would make for a good test.

Let's see if the RED team can give us some insight on this..........
 
That would make for a good test.

Let's see if the RED team can give us some insight on this..........
Would be nice. :)

I'm not saying that the images themselves would be indistinguishable - 2K has the advantage of being RAW, and that brings along with it its own benefits. From a purely resolution standpoint, however, we know they will be close. And many have stated that an oversampled image from the full 4K is going to retain more resolution at 1080 than the 2K will provide. But you're right, it's all speculation until we can see some footage.
 
If you get to the point where 1080p is a delivery format you are not considering anymore for your productions, because it's not a "big enough picture", then I frankly think you won't consider shooting "onboard" for your slo-mo as an option, but rather shoot 4k uncompressed from the raw port and leave us poor mortals shooting tiny pictures in our scaled 1080p 60frs miserable world.
 
If you get to the point where 1080p is a delivery format you are not considering anymore for your productions, because it's not a "big enough picture", then I frankly think you won't consider shooting "onboard" for your slo-mo as an option, but rather shoot 4k uncompressed from the raw port and leave us poor mortals shooting tiny pictures in our scaled 1080p 60frs miserable world.
That's a great point. :-) Perhaps we are getting a little lost in our grand dreams of 4K. However, remember that even if 1080p is the end goal, you'll still probably want to shoot 4K because of the resolution, RAW capabilities, and flexibility in post (cropping, etc.) - not to mention it preserves the best-quality master possible for the future. And the question is that if you are going to be doing any offspeed shooting - although both 1080 and 2K will give you enough resolution for a 1080p deliverable - how is it going to cut with the rest of your footage? Will the oversampled 1080 shots in RGB and not RAW make a noticable difference? Will the 16mm characteristics in the 2K-only shots be distracting? Which one will truly hold up better next to the 4K footage, which was oversampled in post and not in-camera? The truth is we have no idea until we get in the trenches and try it. But we can't eliminate 1080p until we have that information - which is why the issue of what formats stay and which ones don't needs to be resolved before the camera ships.
 
People keep citing "flexibility" and I'm assuming you're refering to color flexibility, but I've been assuming 1080p RGB was still the full 12bit linear color space. Is that true?
 
People keep citing "flexibility" and I'm assuming you're refering to color flexibility, but I've been assuming 1080p RGB was still the full 12bit linear color space. Is that true?
Yes, but apparently we get more dynamic range from the RAW image and have the ability to push it around further in post. It's similar to that of a workflow with a RAW dSLR image, although the REDCODE image has been compressed. I'm not so sure the RGB image is just going to "fall apart" compared to the RAW image like some would have you think, although Jim has really been pushing RAW lately and I don't know if that's inherently because the image really does look that much better or he'd just rather get rid of the legacy formats in the first place. Probably a bit of both.

One would think, however, that a 12-bit 4:4:4 1080p image that's been oversampled from 4K is going to look pretty darn stellar compared to what's currently out there - RAW or not.
 
Well if 2K windowed and 1080P are undistinguishable in quality, then the argument becomes what's more important: 36 extra fps, or a shallow dof?

On the topic of 35mm dof, there are workarounds...Move the camera further from the intended object and shoot with a tighter lens and have your AC carry a remarked piece of barrel tape taking into account the S16mm dof.
 
Well if 2K windowed and 1080P are indistinguishable in quality, then the argument becomes what's more important: 36 extra fps, or a shallow dof?
Sure, and it becomes purely subjective at that point. But I don't see how one can make the motion to completely deny those who would prefer the 35mm option just because they would prefer the windowed. It's all about choices, right?
 
It is indeed all about choices.

It's truly a matter of personal preference at this point and I for one, coming from the short/feature length cinema end of the business find that an extra 36fps would be more than welcome in comparison to an RGB/35mm dof format.

To each his own I guess.....Until the God's of RED decide.
 
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