ENG and Cinema...

[Andrew Young]

I’ll repeat…the EFP market is the single largest potential market for RED One...

The more RED succeeds in its rollout, the better it is for all of us adaptors

I completely agree with you Gibby, but the question is are those 1080p RGB files going to be any more useful to Rodney and the post team on 24 (or any other EFP application) then the 4K Redcode Raw files? It sounds like those 1080p RGBs are still going to have to be transcoded into a format that John Q Production's Avid can use, so why not do it from the 4K Redcode Raw files and maintain the better dynamic range of that format (which is the true genius of this camera)? Will in-camera 1080p support do anything to increase Red's acceptance if the file format is does not fit directly into existing non-Final Cut pipelines?

Shouldn't this debate really be about the utility of 60fps with the full sensor (which I think is very valuable) rather than D-Cinema vs. EFP?

 

[Stephen Webb]

Because no other camera can do it, RED One shouldn't?

What I'm saying is it's not "critical" that Red has this feature - it would hardly be seen as missing apart from a few people who knew that at one point it was planned. The usefulness of the feature needs to be weighed against that of the proposed feature it would make way for.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Orly, as of right now, 1080 scaled RGB goes up to 60fps. It's on red's camera specs on their site.

Oh sure. You can also do 4k up to 60fps but where do you put the frames? I don't think 60fps 1080p RGB to REDDrive has ever been an option.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Amen on doing it all. Also why there aren't many orders for B4 mount.

Amen on doing it all. Also why there aren't many orders for B4 mount.

There's a whole other world of production and revenue generation potential beyond the "24p for cinema" paradigm...and there's a bunch of us RED One adopters who plan on doing it and the "24p for cinema" production.

Amen, that is my situation as well - the big and is the key.

IMO the reason not many B4 adaptors have been ordered, even though it does have extensive utility in the EFP industry, is that it is simply an indication of the limited number of EFP-oriented guys

Gibby (and Jim too): I think the reason only a few B4 adaptors have been ordered is that first of all it is an adaptor (with whatver quality loss that creates) and it is $3500. I think a lot of RED users are those that may have full size B4 mount standard definition cameras and their only HiDef is an HVX200 or Z1 prosumer. RED is their choice for full scale HiDef rather than the DVCProHD or Xdcam offerings from Pana/sony etc. Therefore they don't have an HD B4 lens to cross over. (I also think people would be surprised at how many HD B4 mount cameras are used with SD lenses.)

Also even if you have a Varicam or F900 with HD lens it is likely you'll either want to keep it working or sell it and the HD lens would stay with it.

Personally, although there are a lot of situations where I will miss the solid grip, zoom rocker and momentary auto iris that I have on my B4 lens, I would rather put the $3500 toward either the RED PL lenses or the Birger mount and a set of Canon lenses.

But it doesn't change the fact that most of my direct paying jobs will be the EFP type that you describe.

 

[Steve Gibby]

What I'm saying is it's not "critical" that Red has this feature - it would hardly be seen as missing apart from a few people who knew that at one point it was planned. The usefulness of the feature needs to be weighed against that of the proposed feature it would make way for.

OK...let's follow your analogy: taking full sensor scaled, downsampled 1080p RGB, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60 away from RED One affects the single largest potential market for RED One - the non-hardlined EFP industry potential. It may not be "critical" to guys who only do D-cinema, but it would be critical to thos eof us who do a wide variety of production genres, including non-hardlined EFP - again the single largest potential market for the RED One camera system in terms of potential adoption penetration, thus sales and rental market fee generation.

Conversely, including 2k RC RAW @96fps in RED One, at the expense of eliminating and full sensor downscaled 1080p RGB in camera 31-60fps would benefit the cine market (moderate market potential), but hamper the EFP market (largest market potential).

4k RC RAW in camera is limited to 30fps...fine for many applications, but not a high enough fps for many others...close but no cigar!

I can appreciate the cinema industy...indeed I work in the cinema, EFP, and digital photography industries. But RED is a business and I think their decisions on the final specs for RED One will then affect RED One's adoption penetration rates for each genres within the overall motion media industry...and also affect the revenue generation potential of multi-genre adopters of RED One, of which I am one.

If there's a way to include 2k RC RAW @96fps and full sensor downsampled (scaled) RGB at frame rates up to 60fps in the final specifications for RED one, once again I'm voting for that. That would give multi-genre producers more flexibility and also generate RED a higher adoption rate for RED One.

 

[Stephen Webb]

It may not be "critical" to guys who only do D-cinema, but it would be critical to thos eof us who do a wide variety of production genres, including non-hardlined EFP - again the single largest potential market for the RED One camera system in terms of potential adoption penetration, thus sales and rental market fee generation.

I disagree. I don't for a minute believe that there's a large section of EFP users out there who have a "critical" need for 1080p @ 60fps scaled from a 35mm-sized sensor. It won't "hamper" EFP shooters in the slightest, it's just it won't give them the slightly fun new option that you're clearly hankering after!

4k RC RAW in camera is limited to 30fps...fine for many applications, but not a high enough fps for many others...close but no cigar!

That's OK, 'cause now everyone can do 2K @ 100fps! Which should be fast enough for any EFP application (except the sort that use the Tornado, but hey there's not many of them & Red ain't going to those kind of framerates anyways).

But RED is a business and I think their decisions on the final specs for RED One will then affect RED One's adoption penetration rates for each genres within the overall motion media industry...

And I reckon if they drop what you're asking for it'll make not a jot of difference to their penetration rates, 'cause there's no demand for what you're suggesting.

It seems evey time an issue in this argument is met and succesfully rebuffed, another more tenuous one comes along to replace it. Those damn staws just keep on moving...

 

[planet e]

What I'm saying is it's not "critical" that Red has this feature - it would hardly be seen as missing apart from a few people who knew that at one point it was planned. The usefulness of the feature needs to be weighed against that of the proposed feature it would make way for.

the battle cry of "make obsolescence obsolete" was aimed directly at sony and panny and the other HD makers, not at viper or genesis or SI. and i signed up for two of these cameras based on the precept of never having to settle for another 1) half-baked or 2) over-priced camera idea from the major manufacturers. the original premise of this camera was to eliminate trickleware and the trickleware model of doing business. and that directly addresses HD.

but those manufacturers still own the delivery systems and therefore control the deliverables. and until that changes, if RED takes 1080p out, that will be a huge thwarted expectation on my end.

i don't think i'm one of the "few people" --i think "few people" addresses the folks who currently make an actual living producing theatrical releases. i'd bet my XH A1 that the number of us making a living in the corporate or EFP world far outstrips those folks in numbers...and even this camera's release is not likely to change that ratio substantially....

and, just to reinforce the point, downsampling does frequently introduce unwanted artifacting. native 1080p is the best insurance against it....

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Great post, Gibby!

IMO full sensor downsampling to 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60fps is a critical utility and marketing point for RED One to the mobile non-hardlined EFP industry – probably RED’s biggest potential adopter market.

Absolutely. Not only that, but 1080p scaled from the full sensor at higher framerates has applications in every genre I can think of, even cinema and ENG. This mode has to stay... It can't be eliminated until the day we get full 4K REDCODE RAW at 60fps recorded onboard.

Just a thought. If you're shooting a scene in 4k with 35mm depth of field and decide to shoot part of it at 2k/96fps you will open up two stops to compensate for the light loss. The equivalent depth of field now with your super 16mm FOV 2k resolution will effectively be the same as the 4k 35mm at 24fps.

I doubt it will be that straight forward. This will depend on several factors, primarily the lenses being used and their light transmission properties. In the end, DOF is still a function of the FOV combined with focal length. It's not going to be that easy to duplicate many DOF characteristics if you're switching between 35mm and 16mm glass, especially if you're trying to retain the same framing of your subject.

As far as shooting with the 2K windowed area (which is going to happen occasionally when I need those higher frame rates or other optical characteristics of 16mm or 2/3" imagers)... What concerns me more with this is lens options and differences. I'm planning to use RED glass for all my 35mm needs, but what of 16mm? I can still use the 35mm glass. Doing so, DOF, exposure, etc.. all remain the same, but I'm getting an image that's a 75% crop of what that lens is placing on the sensor area. Or I could opt to go with a s16mm lens where I could try to mimmic the same focal length and framing of a similarly marked 35mm lens on the full sensor area, but I wouldn't have the same FOV or DOF characteristics. And here's also where exposure and color reproduction between different lenses can come into play.

Obviously, this is going to take some testing and comparison and which method is better will probably depend on the project at hand. But I'm really starting to think I need to pick up an s16mm PL mount zoom to go with my RED One. My RED lens kit is starting to look like it's going to be RED s35 18-50, 50-150 and a TBD s16mm zoom like a 20-100. From there I can start dreaming about the RED prime set and other possibilities.

 

[Stephen Webb]

Right, this has gone on long enough.

Clearly the only solution to this debate now is for us all to line up and have a giant pie fight.

Gibby, I'll draw up the battlelines - you bake the pies.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think this whole debate is moot if the camera can't record 1080p RGB @60fps on board.

Can we get an official word on if that's even an option?

I mean... If it's between 1080p at 1000 fps and 2k @ 100 I would choose 1080p but that doesn't mean I get that choice.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I disagree. I don't for a minute believe that there's a large section of EFP users out there who have a "critical" need for 1080p @ 60fps scaled from a 35mm-sized sensor. It won't "hamper" EFP shooters in the slightest, it's just it won't give them the slightly fun new option that you're clearly hankering after!

Sports, nature, documentaries, reality, events, business productions, and many other genres and sub-genres regularly need 60 fps. Those genres are part of the family of non-hardlined EFP production genres. They also represent collectively the largest single percentage block of motion media productions each year in the world. If you don’t see that need, then I would ask you, do you produce in any of those genres? If so, what % of your production is in those genres. I’ve contributed to about 800 international and national television productions directly within those genres, and several hundred other national business media projects, so I have a good handle on the tech needs of those genres…and I think scaled 31-60fps would be very helpful for them.

That's OK, 'cause now everyone can do 2K @ 100fps! Which should be fast enough for any EFP application (except the sort that use the Tornado, but hey there's not many of them & Red ain't going to those kind of framerates anyways).

Yes, that is nice and it is useful, and it is desirable…but it is windowed so it has its limitations also, many of which have been enumerated on this thread and others.

And I reckon if they drop what you're asking for it'll make not a jot of difference to their penetration rates, 'cause there's no demand for what you're suggesting.

It seems evey time an issue in this argument is met and succesfully rebuffed, another more tenuous one comes along to replace it. Those damn staws just keep on moving...

I think you’re wrong…see my paragraph above. If you work in sports, nature, documentaries, reality, events, and business productions, let’s hear about it so we can draw a conclusion about what professional experience you’re drawing that opinion from. If you do work in some of them, but just shoot 24p, or for some reason like a narrow FOV from a windowed sensor, you wouldn’t like the creative possibilities of faster frame rates from a scaled sensor. Etc.?


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BTW Stephen, I thought your summary of the issues post on the "Understanding 2k vs. HD Issue" thread (your Post #2. Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3497), was excellent. I have no personal axe to grind with you and I respect everyone's opinion. Critical tech discussions like this one are what online tech boards are all about - plus they give critical real world feedback to RED.

 

[Matt Steinauer]

Hey Jeff,

You bring up great points. I was thinking of a case where you are simply using the same 35mm lens. In my case I'm picking up all the RED zooms and using the 2k windowed for the high speed stuff.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I've reserved all the lenses that RED has announced..and I'll use them heavily. But, I'm also looking for the the creative ability to use S16mm, 35mm still, and B4 2/3" lenses to their maximum potential whenever a project callls for them as the best option for the project.

Creative options, in camera, with lenses, and accessories is what I'm after...

 

[Stephen Webb]

Sports, nature, documentaries, reality, events, business productions, and many other genres and sub-genres regularly need 60 fps.

Yeah, and none of 'em need 35mm DOF, so the 2K windowed option will do well in each of these. Documentaries, Events & Business Productions are all areas I'm in ("Reality" can go take a running jump) and I don't see that 60fps and 35mm DOF together are a necessity.

I have no personal axe to grind with you and I respect everyone's opinion.

Oh hell, I've no axe to grind either. If I did I wouldn't be doing it here. If anything I'm just trying to get you to admit that your reason for wanting 60fps scaled is the same as my reason for wanting 100fps 2K windowed - personal preference. The argument for the "need" for either is debateable (as I think we've adequately proved).

 

[Steve Gibby]

Yeah, and none of 'em need 35mm DOF, so the 2K windowed option will do well in each of these. Documentaries, Events & Business Productions are all areas I'm in ("Reality" can go take a running jump) and I don't see that 60fps and 35mm DOF together are a necessity.)

Well, I use 35mm DOF for tons of the creative b-roll, inbumps, outbumps, mood montages, etc, with in my productions in those genres (and sports, nature, etc.), and so does my competition. My last Emmy Award was for a documentary, and each year when I judge multiple national Emmy Awards categories for directing and cinematography, whithin many of those genres, I specifically look for 35mm DOF and off-speed shooting as "frosting on the cake", even if the rest of the production was shot at 24fps and/or with medum to deep DOF. We see this issue differently.

Oh hell, I've no axe to grind either. If I did I wouldn't be doing it here. If anything I'm just trying to get you to admit that your reason for wanting 60fps scaled is the same as my reason for wanting 100fps 2K windowed - personal preference. The argument for the "need" for either is debateable (as I think we've adequately proved).

My reason isn't personal preference, although I'm a big fan of options. My reasons are professional and fiscal. The broader capability RED One has, the more effectively I can work in the wide range of cine-style and EFP style genres I work in - and that's both professionally rewarding and enhances my finances.

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

I love inteligent informative conversations- I believe you sum up this whole discussion.

If anything I'm just trying to get you to admit that your reason for wanting 60fps scaled is the same as my reason for wanting 100fps 2K windowed - personal preference. The argument for the "need" for either is debateable (as I think we've adequately proved).

Is it an assumption that 1080P scaled will look better than 2k windowed. If not that significant- wouldn't everyone benefit from higher frame rates. Since everything probably has to be transcoded anyways before delivery?

 

[Häakon]

I think this whole debate is moot if the camera can't record 1080p RGB @60fps on board.

Can we get an official word on if that's even an option?

Hi Gavin,

That spec has been a part of the camera for over a year. My last 30 posts have been an argument *for* keeping 1080p - not because it's an ENG/EFP legacy format - but because it's the only way to get 60p from the full sensor onboard! If you had to use a RAID or some other system to get 60p in 1080, most of us would just be shooting 4K and be done with it.

Here's the red format options chart:

http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml

You can see that in 1080 mode, under the 35mm frame size, "Up to 60fps" is listed as the maximum framerate for REDCODE. You record REDCODE onboard, not out to the RAID (RECODE is compressed, the high-speed data port is not). The formats that are not supported onboard are listed in some of the other categories near the top, where there is a special designation for "RAW Data Port." For instance, you can see that when shooting 4K RAW, you can only do "Up to 30fps" with REDCODE (onboard), but you can do "Up to 60fps" through the high-speed port (external RAID). Some are insisting to keep 1080p around because it's a format that will fit in better with client deliverables, but the primary factor for me is that it's the only format which will allow offspeed shooting from the entire sensor - onboard. That alone is a significant reason to vote that 1080p stays no matter what.

I thought I had posted the subject to death, but I can see the issue still isn't clear. Can we get a more detailed, less confusing format options page?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Gavin,

Here’s a few past RED Team references to 1080p/60 internal recording. Let’s all keep in mind that the RED One spec has been, and still is subject to change until it is verified as being locked down:



RED One Recording Options (10/17/06 Updated)

Internal / Local: (REDCODE to RED-FLASH or RED-DRIVE etc)

4K RAW @ 1 - 30fps

2K RAW @ 1 - 60fps

2K RGB @ 1 - 60fps

1080p @ 1 - 60fps (Generate 1080i if desired from a 1080p recording)

720p @ 1 - 120fps

External / Remote: (Uncompressed RAW to RAID via High Speed Data port)

4.5K RAW @ 1 - 60fps

2K RAW @ 1 - 120fps


Stuart English
DVX User
10/17/06
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75097&page=2





Usual caveat, all specifications are subject to change, and will - guaranteed!

The chart for 1080p is accurate. The max record rate stated over SATA is 60fps.... What we haven't updated is 720p over SATA can go up to 120fps...

For 1080p at 120fps, your path is to capture 2K RAW at 120fps external to the camera over the high-speed data port, and extract 1080p from RAW using REDCINE.

Stuart English
10/17/06
DVX User
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75097&page=3





Additional past RED Team, and current RED web site references that seem to point to 1080p/60 internal recording capability:

Rob Lohman post #23
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=405&page=3&highlight=1080p+RGB+60fps

Jarred post #38
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=55505&page=4

Stuart English Post # 36, paragraph 2
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80544&page=3

The current RED web site camera specs page
http://www.red.com/techspecs.shtml



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It would be nice if a RED Team member would update us on this, and confirm if scaled from 4k 1080p/60 RGB is possible to record in-camera, and secondly if 2k RC RAW @96fps and 1080p/60 RGB are both possible to have in the final camera spec.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Thanks Gibby.

Although that has 60fps 2k RGB listed as well. How are they managing that? That's way over 30MBs.

48 fps = 7MBs x 3 channels x 2 (fps) = 42 MBs. Does that mean we could optionally get a lighter compressed 4k at 24fps?

 

[Häakon]

Although, that has 60fps 2k RGB listed as well.

They've since axed 2K RGB. 2K/60p RAW still exists (and may potentially increase to 96fps or more), but it's windowed - not scaled - hence a lot of discussion on the topic.

The format options page shows us the most current information we know that's solidified about the camera until someone from RED updates it and/or us directly. Everything else (even old posts on the subject) is less reliable, because things have been known to change quite often.