ENG and Cinema...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

How will these reference files compare to a full 4k decode and scale to 1080p in Redcine? (Or to a on board 1080p)

The notion that playing from a Quicktime file in Final Cut is a post solution is only valid if there is no difference between a real time demosaic operation, and a rendered demosaic. As far as I know this is not the case - in order to get full quality, you need to render.

I suppose that depends on the real-time demosaic and scale algorithm being used... I would like to imagine a quality setting in there somewhere and the ability on more powerful workstations to get a full-quality down-res in real time. But it seems that the RED team is holding off on quoting any such numbers, abilities and performance stats until final testing is done and cameras ship.

 

[Häakon]

Yeah, I'm fully aware of all that... But I can't justify having the RAW port factory installed (and eliminating my FLASH option) for a feature that I will only use every once in a while. Besides, it would also require a large external RAID and/or powerful system to process and compress the data stream to REDCODE RAW in real-time.

Absolutely, I wasn't suggesting that it's a viable alternative for most users. Just that when I read "4K/60p is part of the spec," I don't automatically assume that to mean it's onboard and in REDCODE RAW - just that the camera is capable of 60p in 4K. Just like it's capable of 30p in 4K onboard right now - but not to the CF cards (yet), just the RED-DRIVE.

In Tom's recent thread from the last day or so, making one last plea for 4K @ 60fps on-board, Jim responded. He said that 4K @60 was in the spec, just not in the first release... So I take that as an encouraging sign, but I think what it means is just what it literally says. I think RED is planning for 4K at 60fps and beyond to be recordable on-camera.

Are you talking about this thread? I don't see a post from Jim, but maybe he said something somewhere else? I know it's hard to keep up with everything.

If Jim did say "4K/60p onboard is in the spec," I'd take it for what it says... but just saying that the camera can do 60fps at 4K doesn't tell me that. It is possible to read into these things too much.

It's the on-board processors (as far as I've always understood it) that are the problem with recording beyond 30fps in 4K. They just can't cope with that amount of data to crunch.... This led to all that discussion about RAM buffers or other options that would allow for recording 4K @ 60fps on-board rather than being tethered to some box the size of an under-counter refrigerator.

Right, that's essentially what I was saying in the end of my last post. If it's a hardware issue, however, and not something that a firmware update can fix, that means we'd all have to send our cameras back in to enable the faster speed recording. I think most would rather pay more for a bigger buffer (or whatever it is) up front, than have to deal with that.

 

[Michael Hastings]

cake and eat it too

cake and eat it too

Thanks, Jeff and Haakon for the explanations. I guess I want my cake and to eat it too - I thought that reading out every other pixel (or set of bayer pixels) wouldn't be any harder than reading a cropped area. It seems to me I read about a special nikon High speed digital SLR that did more frames per second by reading out like I was thinking i.e. reading less pixels but from the full frame area, but maybe it did just read a cropped area too.

You've convinced me that it isn't technically possible to get 2K FULL FRAME but has anybody answered the question about whether (since the FPGA can't hold the code for all of the modes plus 2K @ 96) the FPGA could be field programmed through the normal CF update process to do either mode?

It has to dow with the sensor data itself and how the bayer pattern and info is dealt with. According to Graeme / Stuart, this can't be scaled unless it is converted into RGB color space first. So this is why the 1080p scaled mode has to be RGB and not RAW.

Of the RGB modes, the only one I'm interested in keeping is the 1080p mode. And only because it would allow for capturing the full 35mm sensor area at rates from 30fps to 60fps. Jim has said that 4K @ 60fps is in the specs, just not for this first release. I'd love to know some more details about that... Are we looking at a minor revision and upgrade in the not too distant future or will this involve a significant upgrade at some much later date?

 

[Antoine Fabi]

Is it me or is the development exponential ?

The last weeks have been rich in new possibilities.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Please Just Say Bye Bye 1080p And 720p RGB And Hello 2k Redcode At 96fps onboard?

I think the need and demand for 2K slow mo heavily outweighs the need for ENG and Doc shooters 1080P RGB requests.

Think 300, how else could we get anywhere near those sort of shots without near 100fps shooting.

I think RED was designed first and foremost as a 4K Digital Cinema camera, not an ENG camera, so if something needs to be cut in order to boost it's cinema capabilities, please do so.

Jim, even if this option doesn't make it to the final version of RED, I'll take the 2K 96fps proto. :umm:

 

[Neil Duffy]

4k@48fps

4k@48fps

Is there any chance of 4k @ 48fps?

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'm just thinking along the lines of making the RED ONE the end all be all to Digital Cinema cameras, not in the Digital Cinema, ENG, Doc, Live Event market.

If RED doesn't have sufficient slow mo capabilities, that will be a very big downfall IMO. Think of how many films utilize great slow mo shots.... Action films, Martial Arts films, Dramatic moments, explosions, slow motion is a very key feature and that is honestly the only thing that RED lacks at this moment.

Sure there's always the option of shooting 35mm or with the Phantom, but again, that defeats the purpose of RED.

Remember, the RED MINI can handle the lower end resolutions along with ENG related work while its big brother RED ONE can handle the Cinema department.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Is there any chance of 4k @ 48fps?

Probably not, as that would be about double the data processing requirement of 2K at 96fps.

 

[Larry]

I don't really think going from Redcode raw to cineform raw is a super great solution. I'd like to hear from a member of the Red team, to confirm this (that premiere and after effects can handle redcode raw).

Sure, I agree, if the question is of editing immediately what is shot, yes, then editing Redcode raw in Premiere is the best choice. However, there are needs going beyond this immediate pragmatism.

Many will edit the material shot with Red along with other formats and there is also a need to archieve the files. One may have already a huge archieve and it is impossible to switch from one system (say Windows and PPro) to another (Mac and FCP). To keep the amount of archieved data in reasonable limits, storing the raw files is the best approach. Once this choice is made, one should be able to live with that say the next 20 years, and in 2025 one needs to be able to convert Redcode raws to whatever format is then on the markets.

If Red will focus on the cinema camera, then it sounds reasonable that Red made co-operation with companies like Cineform yielding maximal flexibility to the Red users to convert Redcode files to what ever format they like including Cineform raw. Technically the conversion between Redcode raw and Cineform raw makes far more sense than conversion to many other formats. Furthermore, this would also help managing with our customers who already edit with PPro and Cineform. In which format are you planning to give them your Red material?

I believe it would be a win-win game if there were a Red and Cineform conversion. These formats would then become the de facto standard of NLE 2K and 4K market.

In the end of the day, the question is whether Red wants to be a cinema camera company or also a software house. Compare, in early days of personal computers Apple kept both the hardware and software in its own hands and did not co-operate with external partners. Microsoft took another strategy. From the user's point of view, opening the doors to external partners on secondary issues could benefit a lot the Red owners.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I think it is clear from the outset that the RED was designed for people who, to a great degree, will have control over their shooting environments and their subject matter. 35mm depth-of-field (one of Red's principal features) pretty much demands at least some attention to subject and location. If you don't have control over your subject or your shooting environment, then you won't like shooting ENG with this camera. RED obviously requires that one plan one's shots.

EFP, most Documentaries, Industrials and commercials schedules should be able to absorb the required time to transcode footage. If you need it now, right now, to hand off to a client, air on the six o'clock news or just beat the next guy to the punch, why would you choose Red?

When one examines the features that this camera has, it becomes increasingly obvious that 720p and even 1080p are largely irrelevant capture formats. They are really only delivery formats, but bear in mind this option is not closed to the RED user, it only requires transcoding.

You would never shoot news with a Panavision. With all the technical issues that are being discussed and are quite relevant, let's not forget the primary use for this camera. Jim is sending test units out to movie directors and motion picture DP's. To my knowledge he hasn't sent any out with TV crews to shoot news (which includes sports).

I know one of the big markets for this camera will probably be sports related, but I doubt anyone will use it to report. It will shoot beautiful documentaries and analytical footage.

I think engineering and R&D time spent on anything relating to 720 or 1080 will be time wasted once the camera is released. The longer this camera takes to get to market, the better RED's detractors and competitors will like it and the greater the R&D lead time they get to mount an effective response to it.

Time can ironically be both beneficial and detrimental to the RED project. Sure, the camera will have stunning features that we all crave, but we're reaching a critical moment in the development cycle when decisions must be made and locked. The cameras will ship soon and the first units must generate revenue for RED and the RED User. The quicker that day arrives, the longer RED will enjoy it's headstart on dominating the market.

I expect Jim, if he hasn't already, will lock the features in the next few days and pull the trigger on the assembly line. I have every confidence in Red Team's ability to develop forward, ahead of the trend curve. I only hope my fellow Red Users will see the benefit of having a real market edge in the 2k & 4K capture.

The envelope of what is possible in our industry is about to change. You must put your pre-conceived (and firmly entrenched) notions of HOW you do business aside and let the technology drive. The technology, thanks to Red Team, is in some degree of flux right now. It is times like these, when revolutionary products are introduced into well established business models, that new lines of business and new efficiencies emerge. Not a good time to take one's eye off the ball.

I have heard a great deal about how we all work and our needs and desires for what this product will deliver. RED is positioned to have a quantum impact for those of us who make moving images. Simply introducing this camera and the accompanying workflow in post will create far-reaching and unpredictable changes in how things are accomplished in post and for delivery.

You are all members of this community because you can SEE the future that RED Team is creating and you know what it means for you in your business and career. Jim's motto is: things can change, count on it. We too must change, we must be open to completely re-learning how we do things or this camera will end up being a seventeen thousand dollar paperweight. Are we up to it? Will the Red User be a match for the camera? Only time will tell...

This industry is about to change, count on it.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

Please Just Say Bye Bye 1080p And 720p RGB And Hello 2k Redcode At 96fps onboard?

I think the need and demand for 2K slow mo heavily outweighs the need for ENG and Doc shooters 1080P RGB requests.

Think 300, how else could we get anywhere near those sort of shots without near 100fps shooting.

I think RED was designed first and foremost as a 4K Digital Cinema camera, not an ENG camera, so if something needs to be cut in order to boost it's cinema capabilities, please do so.

Jim, even if this option doesn't make it to the final version of RED, I'll take the 2K 96fps proto. :umm:

"I think the need and demand for 2K slow mo heavily outweighs the need for ENG and Doc shooters 1080P RGB requests".

How can you be so sure about that - really?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Jim for your re-affirmation of RED’s commitment to other uses of RED One beyond D-cinema. Much appreciated…as it has been included and mentioned by RED Team since RED One was announced.

I believe this thread is the first mention of REDQUICK and it’s capabilities. Great concept…it enables what’s needed for client review, etc. Very cool! I think there’s a definite need for REDQUICK…I’ll look forward to using it.

IMO the reason not many B4 adaptors have been ordered, even though it does have extensive utility in the EFP industry, is that it is simply an indication of the limited number of EFP-oriented guys on this particular board and RED's heavy market positioning as a D-cinema camera without much publicity for its EFP capabilities. With a little change in marketing strategy for the B4 adaptors I think they'd sell quite well. There are tens of thousands of B4 2/3" HD ENG and cine lenses owned and rented in the overall EFP industry.

There seems to be some real misunderstanding on this thread as to ENG and EFP definitions. RED One will have only limited application for ENG (electronic news gathering), but massive application for EFP (electronic field production). ENG is but a small sub-genre of non-hardlined EFP, and ENG is but a tiny percentage of televised programming. Non-hardlined EFP is by far the highest percentage of all televised programming. Some examples of televised non-hardlined EFP include: drama, reality, documentaries, news b-roll, alternative sports, nature, and many others. Some examples of hardlined (trucked/studio switched) EFP include: daytime drama, sports, music specials, some competition reality, and others. There are scores of examples of non-televised, non-hardlined EFP production: business media, events, and many more. Those who seek a definition and explanation of ENG, the many divisions of EFP and how RED One can be used in them can find a lot of useful info in my “EFP/ENG Explanations and Definitions” sticky.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

I’d invite those on this thread who seek to claim RED One as a D-cinema only camera, and question that RED One was also being developed all along for broad EFP to re-read my March 2006 published interview with Jim Jannard:
Link: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/6388.html

A continuous stream of statements by RED Team members since then has re-affirmed RED’s additional commitment to additional EFP capability in RED One.

The EFP/ENG for RED forum was established on RED User almost 6 months ago, and so was my EFP & ENG Definitions and Explanations sticky that explains the divisions of EFP and ENG, and my recommended uses for RED One within them. If RED One wasn’t being developed for extensive EFP use that forum wouldn’t have ever been established by Jarred, and my sticky wouldn’t have been posted and approved by him. Why are some many cine-centric guys on this board repeatedly, selfishly, and egotistically trying to claim RED One as a D-cinema only camera at the expense of those of use who work in a broad range of cine and EFP genres? Statification of motion media camera systems into ironclad categories and camps of film, EFP, ENG, etc. is the way the industry has been for decades. My view of media convergence is equipment that unifies, simplifies, and enables the use of current technology for a broad range of styles and genres – thus generating increased skills and revenue for adopters. That’s why I adopted RED early on…and that’s why I’m still here.

I’ll repeat…the EFP market is the single largest potential market for RED One, and the membership of RED User does not accurately reflect the actual demographic and market for RED One. Those who think that RED One is just being beta tested in features and pure cine-style applications need to think again. Rodney Charters’ testing of a RED beta on “24” is an example of non-hardlined EFP – electronic field production. Sure, he uses certain cine lenses and accessories, but the style and end use is televised non-hardlined EFP. This past year he’s been promoting JVC HD100/101 cameras in mag ads for similar applications: non-hardlined EFP with cine lenses and accessories. Mark Nevaldine's beta testing of RED One was also non-hardlined EFP shooting. Digital cinema is not a clearly defined industry – there’s a ton of crossover to non-hardlined EFP. If productions are shot in an EFP environment for use in EFP applications (TV - not the big screen), I maintain that that even though they use some cine style lenses/accessories, and some cine style techniques, they are categorized as EFP.

Some other notes
EFP via the HD-SDI to tape option is only feasible stationary or nearly stationary EFP productions. Mobile non-hardlined EFP, the largest percentage of EFP, and probably the highest percentage of all motion media production total worldwide, will not be able to use the HD-SDI to tape solution for reasons of lack of mobility.

IMO full sensor downsampling to 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60fps is a critical utility and marketing point for RED One to the mobile non-hardlined EFP industry – probably RED’s biggest potential adopter market. That same market can use their B4 2/3” HD ENG and cine lenses with a RED B4 adaptor in 2k RC RAW, but there are many times that they will want full-sensor scaled 1080p with a combination of full frame (not windowed), wide FOV, 35mm DOF and chroma downsampling for their HD-destined productions – and only 1080p RGB will satisfy all those needs.

The 4k through REDCINE and REDQUICK workflow is outstanding and well though out! I’ll shoot tons of 4k on my RED One’s, using RED S35 lenses (and others), and 35mm still lenses. All of that is awesome for sure. But, as noted in the paragraph above I still think a full-sensor sampled, up to 60 fps 1080p RGB should remain in the final specification for RED One.

Post script
The more RED succeeds in its rollout, the better it is for all of us adaptors, whether we be camera buyers or renters. A strong RED One showing across multiple industries, styles, and genres translates to more revenue potential for every one – RED as a company and use as adopters. If someone chooses to limit themselves to a narrow niche of production, fine, but there are others of us who are significantly broader in our professional and fiscal approach to the motion media business. For those who want to limit themselves down to a small range of cine style productions to now selfishly try to fly up the “D-cinema Only!” flag at this late date in RED One’s development, in ignorance of RED One’s continuous claim to being developed as a D-cinema and EFP camera, is disappointing, divisional to this community, and demonstrative of a thorough misunderstanding of RED One’s pedigree, developmental goals, and intended uses.

Thanks again Jim for re-affirming RED’s commitment to the EFP sector of this industry. I’ve understood that from the beginning, and it has been published widely. Now if the members of this board and others would simply read that history, what’s been published, use the search functions, and keep open minds, there would be a lot less factionalism on this board and others about what RED One is and what RED isn’t.

We’re all part of the overall motion media family, everyone deserves respect, and IMO some RED One adopter’s attitudes of “We’re the Bourgeoisie” (cinema/D-cinema) and you’re the Proletariat (everyone else in the industry)” need to be done away with – and it needs to be reflected in the features, utility, and revenue generating flexibility of emerging camera systems like RED One.

 

[Matt Steinauer]

Just a thought. If you're shooting a scene in 4k with 35mm depth of field and decide to shoot part of it at 2k/96fps you will open up two stops to compensate for the light loss. The equivalent depth of field now with your super 16mm FOV 2k resolution will effectively be the same as the 4k 35mm at 24fps.

 

[Stephen Webb]

IMO full sensor downsampling to 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60fps is a critical utility and marketing point for RED One to the mobile non-hardlined EFP industry – probably RED’s biggest potential adopter market.

But why is it critical? No other camera can do this, so how are you missing anything by not being able to do it on Red?

 

[SF Geek]

Couldn't have said it better myself Gibby. There is definately a snobbishness toward anything non-cine that's becoming more prevalent from the latest threads. When people say just rent another camera for EFP (not ENG) work they don't seem to understand that if I do that I'm not getting rental on my investment. I might have been wrong on a few things concerning transcoding and getting deiverable formats, but I didn't misread the tone of many on this thread.

A couple other things. Stop investing so much in the windowed 2k when we have never seen any footage from it. Also, stop making assumptions about what the Red Mini is for and what it can and can't do. Red has said nothing other than they plan on making it sometime in the future.

 

[SF Geek]

Stephen. What do you mean by no other camera can do 1080 up to 60fps?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Actually we know exactly what the 2k window will look like: a 2k crop of any of the released stills so far.

Whoa... who said RED can do 60fps @ 1080p RGB on camera? That's a lot of data even with REDCode!

 

[Steve Gibby]

But why is it critical? No other camera can do this, so how are you missing anything by not being able to do it on Red?

Because no other camera can do it, RED One shouldn't? RED One has been positioned from the beginning as an evolutionary, if not revolutionary D-cinema and EFP capable camera system. I mentioned that full sensor downsampled 1080p, in camera, at frame rates from 31-60 would be important to non-hardllined EFP production (giant market for RED One) because all of those parameters would be very useful in multiple genres of non-hardlined EFP production: sports, nature, documentaries, events, business media, and on and on and on.

There's a whole other world of production and revenue generation potential beyond the "24p for cinema" paradigm...and there's a bunch of us RED One adopters who plan on doing it and the "24p for cinema" production.

 

[SF Geek]

Orly, as of right now, 1080 scaled RGB goes up to 60fps. It's on red's camera specs on their site.

 

[Storyline]

1080p Scaled

1080p Scaled

For many productions, the current 1080p environment for editing and delivering is of utmost importance. Scalers in the editing systems are of dubious quality and can introduce nasty artifacts and softening. In-camera scaling to 1080p for recording to Red Drive or Red Flash or CF, even if it's not a RAW format, would keep the door open for easy workflow in many enviroments. Just give me a decently compressed 1080p scaled file to push into PremierePro, Avid, or FCP so I can get to work - or give my footage to someone else to get to work ASAP.

I plan on using Red at 4k for our documentary theatrical projects, but for the bread and butter corporate work happening right now and for the next several years - 1080p scaled crisp and clean in camera and ready for editing is what is needed.

--Dan