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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"Dueling with DRAGON: RED's 6K Sensor Takes on Older MX in This EPIC Camera Shootout"

but 90 minutes ... ? maybe in 3D
 
Jan Reiff said:
i saw real life comparison Alexa / Dragon on a 4K screen. graded stuff. honestly, it was SO hard to say what camera is left or right ... Dragon has more details actually - but DR and noise, ... maybe i need a doctor, but they are on the same level, and all other stuff is a preference of the logo on the camera ... if you can´t shoot a good movie with Alexa, Dragon, and MX ...
if you only shoot girls sitting with some charts in the hand, there might be differences, but i never will watch a movie with 90 minutes a girl sitting there with a chart in the hand. urghs.
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You might not, but there are 2.6 million YouTube users who will...as long as the girl lightly taps her fingernails on the chart, or perhaps drums the chart lightly with her fingertips. See this article in the New York Times for more info.

I am sure that the Next Big Thing on YouTube will be the gentle crinkling of black CineFoil, which is why we are all obsessing so much about the DR of DRAGON in the shadows. Right? ;-)
 
Michael Tiemann said:
You might not, but there are 2.6 million YouTube users who will...as long as the girl lightly taps her fingernails on the chart, or perhaps drums the chart lightly with her fingertips. See this article in the New York Times for more info.

I am sure that the Next Big Thing on YouTube will be the gentle crinkling of black CineFoil, which is why we are all obsessing so much about the DR of DRAGON in the shadows. Right? ;-)
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hahaha

if i am at THIS point of state of mind - watching this movies, i will go back shooting hvx200 with ND 2.4
 
Jan Reiff said:
i saw real life comparison Alexa / Dragon on a 4K screen. graded stuff. honestly, it was SO hard to say what camera is left or right ... Dragon has more details actually - but DR and noise, ... maybe i need a doctor, but they are on the same level, and all other stuff is a preference of the logo on the camera ... if you can´t shoot a good movie with Alexa, Dragon, and MX ...
if you only shoot girls sitting with some charts in the hand, there might be differences, but i never will watch a movie with 90 minutes a girl sitting there with a chart in the hand. urghs.
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+1 I agree. We spend too much time talking about DR these days. That said for filming the Dragon is an awesome camera.
 
Personally I agree, from what I see, you can get GREAT results from the Alexa or Dragon. However, I would appreciate it if Red tones down some of their marketing hype. We've got a Sony F5 and a Scarlet, and comparing the DR on both, I was quite disappointed with the Scarlet. I still love it, it's a good camera; but I think at this level its ethical to tell customers exactly what they are about to purchase. The funny thing is, we just paid for the Scarlet to Epic Dragon upgrade and bypassed the F55. So Red is doing a lot right. I would just really appreciate a more exact advertised spec. No hocus pocus, just "this is what it does."

At the end of the day, lets all remember, for those of us who have to buy our cameras, that Alexa costs almost 4 times the price of the Red. So I am a bit sympathetic (but still slightly angry) with Red's plight - its either they make a bit more noise or get mulled by Arri. Also while I think the Arris do a good job, in the 21st century, I do think their prices are a bit exploitative. That's just my humble opinion.
 
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The question for me is if you're perfectly happy with the images you're getting with MX does it really make sense to spend $9.5K for Dragon? No doubt it's the better sensor, produces better color renditions, better skin tone, better DR, better highlights, etc, but it does have it's critics, mainly in the low light performance category ("2000 ISO is the new 800" thing). After all, if you can't shoot with an Epic or a Scarlet, then you shouldn't be doing this.

Currently, ADD and DEB are Dragon-exclusive REDCINE-X post tools, but in the case of DEB, I wonder if can be tweaked to work with MX generated files? Me thinks probably not.
 
Mark Wuerthner said:
YOu might want to look at this test. It pretty much confirms what what Ryan Walters was finding. All of which is telling me to rate the camera at 320 ISO.http://vimeo.com/100207513
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I've looked at that test and looked at the .R3Ds. It's noisy but it's not noisy in the same funky way as the Ryan Walters test.

If you haven't already, download the .R3Ds from part 1 of Ryan's test and look at the image that's two stops underexposed. It's the one that's labeled T4 for the aperture with a filtration of 1.5 + 6. Kick the ISO up to 3200 in Redcine-X (don't use Resolve) so you can see what's happening.

In Redcine-X, a Denoise value of 2 or 3 does a pretty good job of clearing up the most egregious red speckles on most OLPF V2 Dragon images.

When you apply a value of 2 to this image it does something really strange to the entire image. It goes very green. It eliminates ALL the red in the shadows and on the back wall - not just the red speckles.

Not only that, watch what happens to the shadow around the collar and on the left arm when you move the Denoise slider from 0 to 2. It's like a stop or more difference in brightness between the two. The only "detail" in that area is coming from the red speckles. Eliminate those and all you're left with is a crunchy, black mess.

I've never seen Dragon do this in any other .R3D, including the ones associated with the link you provided, even with daylight balanced sources. If you have I'd like to see it.

Gavin Greenwalt discussed this with Ryan and they speculate it may have to do with the daylight balanced lights Ryan used not having enough red content.

Whatever the cause, this is not typical behavior for the Dragon sensor, no matter how much noise is present. This is why I say it's more of a worst case scenario than what you'd expect to see in the majority of shooting situations and should therefore be taken with a grain of salt.


As for shooting at 320, check out this series of images Brian Merlen was kind enough to share (be sure to not post them, per his request). They were all shot at ISO500 at 12:1 or 16:1 compression under HMIs. The shadow areas range from completely acceptable under the circumstances to nice and clean.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?119669-SHUT-UP-AND-SHOOT-THAT-DRAGON

Based on Ryan Walters' test, you'd expect a lot worse performance from Dragon.


EDIT: Also, take a look at this: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...in-the-darks&p=1391307&viewfull=1#post1391307

Ryan's test results seem anomalous to me.
 
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DEB + ADD is unbeatable - this images are superior to all stuff i have seen before (but it takes its time and it is only for Dragon). MX is great camera, tons of great footage out there, yes. But my personal opinion is, that you achieve great results easier with Dragon, because more DR, better colors, very simple. Tungsten perfomance: better. Dragon makes things easier - with MX you needed much more control with the highlights. saying this all please notice - i have no issues with noise or better said: it´s nothing for me i am worried about with Dragon. I know some see this different ;-)
 
Brian is right here - the R3D´s of the Ryan Test are too noisy. Period. This images are not presenting the Dragon Sensor. I did a lot of tungsten "noir" shots last days and they are so much cleaner ...
 
Either this is representative of every Dragon, or the Dragon sensors have a wide quality control tolerance.

Generally speaking, it seems like some people are happy with their Dragon and some are really struggling with it. Could it be that the Dragon sensors are just all totally different? Could it be the OLPFs are all different? I've usually stayed relatively quiet on the forums with my Epic, because it worked excellently, I knew the limits and it was great. With Dragon it seems like everyone is working against some image quality issue or their camera is fine and they love it.

Putting it bluntly, I thought I was buying a camera with a relatively clean 2000 ISO with 16.5 stops of dynamic range and it's apparent that's not what I was sold.

That said, I'm not even that concerned about the red speck noise, they totally eliminated that nasty chunky blue channel noise from the Epic, which is great. Dragon still isn't 2000 as 800.

The one test this didn't do was the Magenta Flare test, which I really wish it did. That has seriously changed the way I shoot backlit scenes.
 
"Putting it bluntly, I thought I was buying a camera with a relatively clean 2000 ISO with 16.5 stops of dynamic range and it's apparent that's not what I was sold."

Very good point.
  1. I don't think anyone here wants to give their Dragon back, it would just be nice to have a more realistic spec from the manufacturer.
  2. I think the advertised specs actually hurts Red more than it helps them. We don't buy these without testing and feedback from other colleagues. And the camera's capabilities become clear eventually.
  3. We all agree they are good cams. However, if you are shooting nights scenes with very little light, and are pushed on budget/time, its good to know what you are actually dealing with. Most people here know what it is like to be hired for a shoot without any time to test - these things do happen.
  4. I am a bit surprised that Red (who usually have excellent customer service) continue to push some of these specs that don't seem true. This is even more damaging to their reputation.

  • I have heard repeatedly that you either have to go with DR or Resolution. Has the science changed? Does anyone here know if Red have actually made a REAL breakthrough, or they are just balancing things differently?
 
Well... If the truth is Alexa DR with 4x the resolution, that is a breakthrough.

Warning: Matter of taste statement, but:
As is the implied statement of his Alexa tests (and in sync with y opinion) the Alexa oversells the darks a bit. Looking better in the monitor when you shoot, than when you come home. Darks are a bit too bright.
Matter-oftaste-warning hereby off.

The big seller for me, also vs the Alexa, is color.
Color and practical richness in the images.

I wouldn't shoot new olpf at 3200/18:1 for practical use, though. I'd rather lower the resolution to 5k and lower the compression...

The new OLPF changed moved the DR upwards. I and a few others are happy with that. The obvious tradeoff is that you have less under.

As to MX vs Dragon NEW. I dunno. Haven't tested.
main point is that they are different cams and should be lit/shot differently.
To me the colors, richness and ability to handle "odd" light sources well has been the convincing point. Allways has been. still is.
 
'Alexa oversells the darks a bit. Looking better in the monitor when you shoot, than when you come home. Darks are a bit too bright.'

A very good point. I have noticed that the darks are a bit too bright.
 
NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
'Alexa oversells the darks a bit. Looking better in the monitor when you shoot, than when you come home. Darks are a bit too bright.'

A very good point. I have noticed that the darks are a bit too bright.
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You can always bring them down though... I'd rather have that than a "darker" low end that can't be brought up.
 
I'll agree with everything you said Gunleik.

But I'll also agree that Red needs to cut the crap on 16+ stops of DR. Sure you can get into matter of taste nonsense, but I think most people can agree there's a lot closer to 14 stops flat. Anything more than that is gravy for smooth roll offs. Which is still great.

Unless Graeme comes up with some new algorithm to get more out of the sensor, Red needs to change their marketing material to 14 stops. It's misinformation.
 
Alan Gordon said:
I'll agree with everything you said Gunleik.

But I'll also agree that Red needs to cut the crap on 16+ stops of DR. Sure you can get into matter of taste nonsense, but I think most people can agree there's a lot closer to 14 stops flat. Anything more than that is gravy for smooth roll offs. Which is still great.

Unless Graeme comes up with some new algorithm to get more out of the sensor, Red needs to change their marketing material to 14 stops. It's misinformation.
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Alan, you are 100% right. And it does them no favours.
 
Personally I want clean iso2000 on the new OLPF, which is what I thought I was getting. Hopefully the new build will bring that.
 
Speculation, well it could be the prototype sensor and the mass production sensor differs in performance.

I have ask this question since RED MX vs EPIC MX days (why EPIC is more noisy) but dead silence. So i dont expect this to have any clear answer as well.

R
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Personally I want clean iso2000 on the new OLPF, which is what I thought I was getting. Hopefully the new build will bring that.
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This and more DR where the reason i upgraded. 6k instead of 5k, don't care. The 2 main selling points turn out to be alot less then promised. And phil, jim said it the past iso 2000 would look as clean as iso800 on mx... It has been said by red. Lets hope new firmware and an updated olpf will solve the problem.
 
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