DSMC2. Unified.

[Abiodun Shote]

The fact that people have the guts to put their own pricing structure in a message to the CEO of a company makes me laugh. Not because it's wrong or ignorant(although it does feel kinda wrong), but because it illustrates one of the best parts of owning Red. You actually have a personal connection to Jarred and understanding that your communication and suggestions might actually be read and considered by him.

What a massive win for Red. So many upset customers, yet most of you will continue to be Red customers for a long time - and you probably should, it's pretty good business.

Oh yeah, happy Epic-W owner here. So there is that.

I still need to be convinced that Gemini is the way to go. It would be hard to turn down the $4,950 upgrade to stay Helium with better 8k internals. Only way, I suppose, is to get my hands on Gemini and test against Helium.

I would rather add a 14.500 to that budget and get me a new GEMINI and still keep my Epic-W, so you have best of both worlds. Helium sensor, Gemini sensor. Beauty of RED offerings

 

[jordan levy]

Since DSMC2 Gemini costs $19.5K, you're basically saying a used Raven ($6K-9K new) is worth $9500 to RED -- Full retail price at the highest price in history + $500 bonus, a used Scarlet-W ($9.5K-12.5K new) is worth $12,500 to RED -- Full retail price at the highest price in history, and a used Epic-W Helium ($19.5K-$29.5K new) is worth $15,500 to RED. Nearly half retail price at the highest price or still 20% below retail at the cheapest possible price.

One of these things is not like the others...

not what im saying at all, first of all i made a disclosure about the math, but what i dont think you get here is that is not what im saying the retail price is, or worth, im saying as a loyal previous customer that is what you get and an incentive to make it easier for red in the future to have one body to deal with. same as like in an introductory price of a specific camera, and as you see you can only do it one level of upgrade. could even add that after the upgrade, it's a non transferable camera in a sale for 6 months
probably what most people are missing with the purpose of this upgrade. though this was more of a joke, but a hypothetical on what it might take to get everyone into a unified body and clean up this mess.

 

[Sean Slobodan]

This thread is absolutely insane to me. The fact that Jarred and Brent even respond to some of the comments in here blows my mind. But that's what makes this place kind of amazing. I upgraded to the CF Weapon in 2016 and nothing about this new lineup changes my approach to my work at all. My tools haven't changed. I'm continually fine tuning my approach to grow, gain clients, and output better work. The same can be said for any company, RED included. Namaste.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

This thread is absolutely insane to me. The fact that Jarred and Brent even respond to some of the comments in here blows my mind. But that's what makes this place kind of amazing. I upgraded to the CF Weapon in 2016 and nothing about this new lineup changes my approach to my work at all. My tools haven't changed. I'm continually fine tuning my approach to grow, gain clients, and output better work. The same can be said for any company, RED included. Namaste.

Read this.

Smart, concise, correct, kind.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think people need to understand, at this point, that RED has three cycles to every product. We've seen this since EPIC MX.

CYCLE 1: Introduction of new sensor/cam.

Premium price (around $50K) but rewards got to early adopters who get newest tech first (ie higher Ks, lower noise, smaller footprint, etc).

CYCLE 2: Mass roll out of product.

Still at Premium Price (ie remains at higher end of market): depending on when you purchase, this is the riskiest time to buy a RED, as the early adopters have already established their market position, and CYCLE 3 could leave owners with an overpriced camera.

CYCLE 3: Price drop as R&D is covered, and market is expanded.

At this point, the product is incredibly stable, and consumers can expect to save 30-50% off previous cycles. Also a great time to become a RED owner.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

I think people need to understand, at this point, that RED has three cycles to every product. We've seen this since EPIC MX.

CYCLE 1: Introduction of new sensor/cam.

Premium price (around $50K) but rewards got to early adopters who get newest tech first (ie higher Ks, lower noise, smaller footprint, etc).

CYCLE 2: Mass roll out of product.

Still at Premium Price (ie remains at higher end of market): depending on when you purchase, this is the riskiest time to buy a RED, as the early adopters have already established their market position, and CYCLE 3 could leave owners with an overpriced camera.

CYCLE 3: Price drop as R&D is covered, and market is expanded.

At this point, the product is incredibly stable, and consumers can expect to save 30-50% off previous cycles. Also a great time to become a RED owner.

I thought RED worked on a tick and tock cycle.

Ref: Intel processors (like such)

i.e; New body, new sensor, new body, new sensor, repeat.

 

[Patrick Kendall]

Problem is that CF Weapon owners got left out in the cold with this one. We are the top-tier group about to be taken over by epic w.. Our only upgrade path is VV which originally just went up in price, I know, after some complaints it has returned back to a cool $30k, but for a very limited time like the McRib.. so now the clock is ticking to upgrade, if I wasn’t lamenting about not buying VV at nab 3yrs ago for $10k, I’ll surely will for not doing it now and wasting an extra $10k.. I remember when I first bought my CF Weapon that VV was promised to our group for $20k.

Here’s the thread, it’s #1: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130609-8K-CF-Weapon-Sensor-Upgrade&p=1494626#post1494626

I plan to upgrade to VV later when it came down in price or when I get enough money , but now I feel like I’m being pushed into doing it now or missing the boat.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I thought RED worked on a tick and tock cycle.

Ref: Intel processors (like such)

i.e; New body, new sensor, new body, new sensor, repeat.

They do.

But I'm saying as an outside observer, every body has 3 buying cycles:.

First Wave: Early Adopters (full price)

Second Wave: Product starts to mature (full price)

Third Wave: Discounted price drop.

We saw this with DSMC1 Epics. They were $50K and then dropped to $25-30K.

Now same has happened w/ Weapon.

 

[Patrick Kendall]

They do.

But I'm saying as an outside observer, every body has 3 buying cycles:.

First Wave: Early Adopters (full price)

Second Wave: Product starts to mature (full price)

Third Wave: Discounted price drop.

We saw this with DSMC1 Epics. They were $50K and then dropped to $25-30K.

Now same has happened w/ Weapon.

that's true, except CF Weapon early adopters are stuck inbetween a rock and hard place. there's no place to go for us, except Monstro and we recieved no discounts unlike stormtrooper owners.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Problem is that CF Weapon owners got left out in the cold with this one. We are the top-tier group about to be taken over by epic w.. Our only upgrade path is VV which originally just went up in price, I know, after some complaints it has returned back to a cool $30k, but for a very limited time like the McRib.. so now the clock is ticking to upgrade, if I wasn’t lamenting about not buying VV at nab 3yrs ago for $10k, I’ll surely will for not doing it now and wasting an extra $10k.. I remember when I first bought my CF Weapon that VV was promised to our group for $20k.

Here’s the thread, it’s #1: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130609-8K-CF-Weapon-Sensor-Upgrade&p=1494626#post1494626

I plan to upgrade to VV later when it came down in price or when I get enough money , but now I feel like I’m being pushed into doing it now or missing the boat.

With mutual respect and nothing but a sense of community and ownership of Red as a HUGE part of my life and business, I retort;

1. Upgrades are privilege, not a right. They will always have a shelf life, act accordingly.
2. With the way the market has gone, the competition, and the tech advances being made, you are going to hold Jarred to a quote from 4+ years ago?
3. There are DSMC1 folks taking advantage of Jarred's offer to upgrade to DSMC2, now, in the middle of 2018, how many years after the introduction of DSMC1? And as a Weapon owner you are worried about missing the boat? C'mon, I know you are better than that.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Problem is that CF Weapon owners got left out in the cold with this one. We are the top-tier group about to be taken over by epic w.. Our only upgrade path is VV which originally just went up in price, I know, after some complaints it has returned back to a cool $30k, but for a very limited time like the McRib.. so now the clock is ticking to upgrade, if I wasn’t lamenting about not buying VV at nab 3yrs ago for $10k, I’ll surely will for not doing it now and wasting an extra $10k.. I remember when I first bought my CF Weapon that VV was promised to our group for $20k.

Here’s the thread, it’s #1: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130609-8K-CF-Weapon-Sensor-Upgrade&p=1494626#post1494626

I plan to upgrade to VV later when it came down in price or when I get enough money , but now I feel like I’m being pushed into doing it now or missing the boat.

Here is the Thing.. if THIS upgrade cycle isn’t for you because you already own one of the best Camera RED has to offer.. and the idea of VV, Monstro etc isn’t for you... Just wait for the next one... don’t feel pressure just because SOME people have a good deal in front of them..

If you are looking for a way to upgrade your current kit and stand out from others, do what I just did.. get some more media and new pro top plate and pro v-mount mod, and a shark fin.

I’m glad I’m not scrambling to upgrade at the moment

 

[Patrick Kendall]

Here is the Thing.. if THIS upgrade cycle isn’t for you because you already own one of the best Camera RED has to offer.. and the idea of VV, Monstro etc isn’t for you... Just wait for the next one... don’t feel pressure just because SOME people have a good deal in front of them..

If you are looking for a way to upgrade your current kit and stand out from others, do what I just did.. get some more media and new pro top plate and pro v-mount mod, and a shark fin.

I’m glad I’m not scrambling to upgrade at the moment

Matt, our deal got worst. We went from 30 grand to 40 grand. I’m not one of those that needs to have the best toy in the sandbox.. I love my CF weapon camera to death. I live, eat and breathe Red, ask anyone who knows me. I’m always putting up photos of my rigs on social media.. I drink the Red kool-aide. I want the monstro upgrade. This is for me. I call up a $20k price quote from three years ago to prove how long I’ve been a loyal follower and patient for VV.

Andrew, you’re an Epic-W owner, I respectfully retort by saying that you are not a CF owner. You have paid whole different set of price points than CF owners. Enjoy your upgrade, I’m happy for you.

Ironically, none of my clients really care if my camera is Dragon, Helium or Monstro. They just care if it’s a DSMC2 body about how much my price is.. and that says a lot about Red.. in that same vein, they aren’t going double my rental fee if I’m Monstro.. it’s catch 22 upgrading... I wish I knew what the future roadmap is for sensors, I would feel much better about the whole current situation...

 

[Josh Becker]

With mutual respect and nothing but a sense of community and ownership of Red as a HUGE part of my life and business, I retort;

1. Upgrades are privilege, not a right. They will always have a shelf life, act accordingly.
2. With the way the market has gone, the competition, and the tech advances being made, you are going to hold Jarred to a quote from 4+ years ago?
3. There are DSMC1 folks taking advantage of Jarred's offer to upgrade to DSMC2, now, in the middle of 2018, how many years after the introduction of DSMC1? And as a Weapon owner you are worried about missing the boat? C'mon, I know you are better than that.

Your point #1 is kind of what rubs me the wrong way when we inevitably see the people ruffled up upon new camera announcements. You were just commending Sean because he pointed out that he *didn't* upgrade his CF Weapon, acknowledgment of this whole "well, you don't have to upgrade" argument that seems to always ignore the pressure/threat of the upgrades having "a shelf life", as you put it. I feel like it's a bit disingenuous to act like there isn't a bit of don't-get-left-out-in-the-cold sales tactic in the upgrade process, when I bet there are a bunch of guys who will tell you they jumped to Epic-W from Epic Dragon for $14.5k because it was their "last chance" (even when many didn't want 8K) only to now have an offer for Gemini.

In my mind, that's where a lot of this reaction comes from. It's not necessarily the upgrade/cost/etc, it's being told one thing and then experiencing another.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

Problem is that CF Weapon owners got left out in the cold with this one. We are the top-tier group about to be taken over by epic w.. Our only upgrade path is VV which originally just went up in price, I know, after some complaints it has returned back to a cool $30k, but for a very limited time like the McRib.. so now the clock is ticking to upgrade, if I wasn’t lamenting about not buying VV at nab 3yrs ago for $10k, I’ll surely will for not doing it now and wasting an extra $10k.. I remember when I first bought my CF Weapon that VV was promised to our group for $20k.

Here’s the thread, it’s #1: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130609-8K-CF-Weapon-Sensor-Upgrade&p=1494626#post1494626

I plan to upgrade to VV later when it came down in price or when I get enough money , but now I feel like I’m being pushed into doing it now or missing the boat.

sensible reaction

steve

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Your point #1 is kind of what rubs me the wrong way when we inevitably see the people ruffled up upon new camera announcements. You were just commending Sean because he pointed out that he *didn't* upgrade his CF Weapon, acknowledgment of this whole "well, you don't have to upgrade" argument that seems to always ignore the pressure/threat of the upgrades having "a shelf life", as you put it. I feel like it's a bit disingenuous to act like there isn't a bit of don't-get-left-out-in-the-cold sales tactic in the upgrade process, when I bet there are a bunch of guys who will tell you they jumped to Epic-W from Epic Dragon for $14.5k because it was their "last chance" (even when many didn't want 8K) only to now have an offer for Gemini.

In my mind, that's where a lot of this reaction comes from. It's not necessarily the upgrade/cost/etc, it's being told one thing and then experiencing another.

I empathize, I do. And I think there is a lot of heart, and merit to what you are saying. But man, my first point is not about upgrading for "x" reason or not upgrading for "y" reason or feelings of pressure or not. It's about owning your shit. It's about looking at the market, looking at your business, looking at your bank account. Then looking at Red, its past, it's trends, and being a grown ass human and making a decision and owning it. Then when things go well because you earned it, got a break, or because you are just good at your job, you enjoy the fruits of your labor. Or conversely, if you experience a downturn for any of the previously mentioned reasons, you own that shit and become a badass problem solver and right the ship. Learn from YOUR decisions and be better.

I've read many of your posts, Josh, seen how involved you are in the community - sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't. But I definitely respect the hell out of you and all the other Redusers who come on here and own their decisions. Only way I know to be great.

Ok, I think I'm done with all this. Can't wait to see what you all shoot with whatever camera you use.

 

[DC Chavez]

I bet there are a bunch of guys who will tell you they jumped to Epic-W from Epic Dragon for $14.5k becahuse it was their "last chance" (even when many didn't want 8K) only to now have an offer for Gemini.

That’s me... I shoot a lot in 4K/120FPS and I held out on upgrading until the last possible day. Gemini is actually the perfect cam for me, but now I have two Epic W’s that have been paid for already with the jobs I’ve done. Maybe I’ll buy a Gemini for the next project

 

[Björn Benckert]

Matt, our deal got worst. We went from 30 grand to 40 grand. I’m not one of those that needs to have the best toy in the sandbox.. I love my CF weapon camera to death. I live, eat and breathe Red, ask anyone who knows me. I’m always putting up photos of my rigs on social media.. I drink the Red kool-aide. I want the monstro upgrade. This is for me. I call up a $20k price quote from three years ago to prove how long I’ve been a loyal follower and patient for VV.

Andrew, you’re an Epic-W owner, I respectfully retort by saying that you are not a CF owner. You have paid whole different set of price points than CF owners. Enjoy your upgrade, I’m happy for you.

Ironically, none of my clients really care if my camera is Dragon, Helium or Monstro. They just care if it’s a DSMC2 body about how much my price is.. and that says a lot about Red.. in that same vein, they aren’t going double my rental fee if I’m Monstro.. it’s catch 22 upgrading... I wish I knew what the future roadmap is for sensors, I would feel much better about the whole current situation...

Sure but you skippped quite afew beats. Not paying the 10k Monstro from CF upgrade, even though Jarred quite clearly stated before that closed that VV / monstro or what ever it was then called would be shit more expansive later. Jumping on that would not only give you a monstro but also a helium while you waited.

Then you could have upgraded CF to helium, then to monstro.

and now the offer to upgrade to monstro is not really bad considering that some paid something like 75k USD for such camera. So to me it´s a bit difficult to see how you can look at it as you did not get any options. As I had the same camera and I saw plenty.

Now, sure we that bought monstro striaght of the bat and paid in advance to a chance. Got it way cheap and early. Those that jumped on these white heliums paid a premium, got camera early but also a half arsed color sience, they get some added love now. But if you bought the CF and just held on to it and did not pick up on the helium or monstro offer that where both quite insanly good. Then why would that camera now this much later be worth so much more than W. You had quite some time for ROI, no?

 

[Marc G]

in a sense , stocked to see FF8k for cheap in 2 years or so ( thinking about it , maybe 8k monstro will drop at 25k in 2 years ) i'll make sure to buy one that day haha

 

[Morgan Ryan]

I'm on the same boat, E-W owner waiting out the VV Monstro to drop in price. My ideal sensor-crop-price choice right now is Gemini, but the end game is VV Monstro.
I feel like if I update to Gemini now and pay the $5K, later when I upgrade to Monstro (when and if the price for upgrade goes lower), I'd have to pay $5K more compared to Helium owner who upgrades to Monstro (since Helium is priced at $5K more).
So in the end, E-W to Gemini to Monstro will cost me $10K more than going E-W to DSMC2 Helium to Monstro. For me, I guess I'll skip Gemini for now.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

The way I see it, us CF Helium owners will probably have some sweet deals on DSMC3, whenever that rolls around.

I was a bit taken back by the initial price drops, but I've learned not to panic. Red always takes care of its loyal customers. They've literally bent over backwards to help me in the past. I'm sure they won't forget us in the future.

Have faith!