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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSMC2. Unified.

I respect that some people feel they need to vent their frustrations here. I don't want to suggest the way I see things is the way everyone should.

First of all, I want to say thanks to everyone at RED for both continuing to make really amazing tools, and for taking the time to try to figure out how to best serve those of us who have bought in. It's too bad you can't please everyone all the time despite your efforts to do so. While I don't consider myself a fanboy, I really do appreciate what you are making and what you are doing. I've shot with high end systems from Arri, Canon, and Sony. I don't want to get in to a debate about which is the "best" camera, that is far too subjective. The RED cameras I have used have been really remarkable tools. And the fact that Jarred, Brent, Graeme, and others are on here personally responding to all kinds of questions and comments, helping us out with issues, and listening to what we have to say, is also remarkable. Thanks to all of you for that.

In terms of the current unification, in my case, I had a Scarlet W order in and I then moved up to Epic W which I've had for over 1.5 years now. Now I have the option of upgrading for $5K to get into my choice of two current cameras - Helium sensor or Gemini sensor DSMC2. That's a $30K camera for roughly 2 years of use, rental, etc., followed by a $20K or $25K camera for hopefully another 2 years of use and rental, for much less than I would have to pay if I was in a similar situation with another manufacturer. I much prefer RED's model of allowing users to upgrade to current spec cameras without having to start over from scratch.
 
Jarred Land said:
We accept that.. but a point many are forgetting that many have brought up is many are making an inaccurate comparison and only using one half the argument. " RED lowered pricing and Sony, Canon and ARRI would never do this! Damn you RED! "

When the reality is Arri has done this. They have dropped camera prices buy 40% overnight. Canon dropped their C300 in half. TWICE. Sony has done the same. Let's not forget the F23/F35 debacle.

There is such a big difference though. We actually give a shit. And unlike the above examples, we didn't lower prices because we have a new shiny toy. We lowered prices because I woke up one day and realized our cameras were more expensive than they should be. It strayed from the foundation of why we started this company.

We buckled down and made it work. We shrunk our team and unified our product and joined our camera business with one of the best supply chain companies in the world to help make things cheaper.

Sure.. we could of just shut the fuck up and increased our margins and quietly laughed all the way to the bank like everyone else does... but we didn't. We passed that on to our customers. Because that's why we are here. It's not about the money. And that's the irony, because that's why people are upset.

We have done this many times before. Every single one of you has taken advantage of our dedication to making the best cameras as affordable as possible so the most amount of people no matter how rich they are can have the best tools to make their art without compromise. Even those that bought cameras a week ago has paid less than they would of. Because that's how it works. And even if you are not a RED customer... I think it's safe to say we made the rest of the industry change to your benefit.

Its also why we are dealing with you all one by one. Because we don't need to do anything. We really don't. Some of you get it , some of you don't. And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly.
Click to expand...

BRAVO - and this is why I am a RED fanboy. You guys actually give a shit.
 
I was also upset with the price slash, considering I have invested (yes I used the word "invested") into the RED system, but Jarred gave me the hook-up. They do give a shit.

Also, while looking at which camera system to get into, RED or ARRI, there were a few reasons why I chose RED, but one thing happened that has never happened in my life. I entered a raffle (somehow, not sure if I wrote down my name or what) before they begun there presentation, and afterward was asking the reps more than a million questions and out of the blue, a worker came up to me and gave me winnings... I'm like "What's this?", "You won the raffle.", "Oh foreal? I never won anything in my life." A sweater and a tech book lol. Seems like nothing, but at the time felt like destiny. Corny and possibly a coincidence, but whatever it could mean a lot more. Here's looking to the future.

P.S. It's a really dope sweater.
 
"...we will reward the level of compassion accordingly"

"Red is the color of fire and blood, so it is associated with energy, war, danger, strength, power, determination as well as passion, desire, and love"....and, compassion.

Thank you, Jarred
 
Jarred Land said:
We lowered prices because I woke up one day and realized our cameras were more expensive than they should be. It strayed from the foundation of why we started this company.
Click to expand...
THIS!!
Thank you RED!
 
David J. Buchanan said:
At the end of the day you're not gonna get anything being this rude, it's only going to be met with more hostility on the other end. Catch more flies with honey and all that.
Click to expand...

To make one thing clear. I'll get what everybody will get, because this is a company and not a religion my friend. How many REDs you own by behaving like a submissive dog? This thread is also a platform to share my opinion I guess. You not fine with it!? Ok. But not call somebody rude who wants to make his point clear. Thanks.
 
That's offensive Frank.
You realize Jarred & Jim regulary offered nice people some really cool and pricy gift as reward for kindness ? And I'm not talking mags here.
You won't achieve anything by being this offensive. Especially with 3 posts at your account.

I'm just glad there is an upgrade path for everyone.
I'll probably get a Gemini myself at the end of the month to add to the Monstro.
Thanks Red.

[edited to remove Frank's quote]
 
Wow, my original post got deleted for sharing my opinion...that’s rude guys! But I'm to deep into the industry to get me quiet for sure.
 
Bérenger Brillante said:
Damn that's offensive.
You realize Jarred & Jim regulary offered nice people some really cool and pricy gift as reward for kindness ? And I'm not talking mags here.
You won't achieve anything by being this offensive. Especially with 3 posts at your account.

I'm just glad there is an upgrade path for everyone.
I'll probably get a Gemini myself at the end of the month to add to the Monstro.
Thanks Red.
Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting me! After they deleted my original post I could move the discussion over to Facebook with a screenshot :)
 
Thai Christen said:
Buying RED top tier camera is like buying a brand new luxury car. As soon as you pick up your key and drive your new car out of the garage, it value depreciates by minimum 20-25%.
Look at Monstro, Weapon and compare to EpicW and Scarlet-W.

HOWEVER, buying RED camera is still a much better investment because you can make money. And if your business model is good you can recoup your investment within 2-3 years max.
Whereas buying a car, you just loose money.
Unless you invest in an Old Timer Car, like a Porsche 356, Mercedes SL Gullwing Coupe or similar. They gain in value over time.
Click to expand...

Even though I completely agree with your sentiment, a car does not depreciate 20-25% the moment you drive it. More like 10%.
 
Tyler Clements said:
I've seen a lot of comparisons between RED's price drop being compared to other electronics and I think that might be misplaced. True, EVERYTHING does devalue. That said, RED is not an iPhone...or are they?. When it comes to business equipment and even cameras - I'm looking for items where depreciation falls at around 10% per year after an initial 10% depreciation if buying new. So if I buy a $50,000 camera I'm hoping that it's worth at least $45,000 if sold after a single use - $40,000 the next year, $35,000 the next year, and so on. There is occasionally a sharper drop in value if it's replaced by new tech. But I expect that it should be worth half its value in maybe three to four years. So buying a camera shouldn't be like buying a phone where it devalues almost completely in two years...but this move by RED sort of puts their camera's in the same boat as an iPhone where we can expect enormous amounts of depreciation in just a couple years.

What we're seeing here with the RED Weapon and similarly with the Monstro is the camera immediately being devalued by half it's initial value. So if you payed $50,000 at the start of the year you've already lost over half the value in half a year. I can certainly see why users are upset. Business purchases are very calculated and these pricing changes have thrown a wrench in everyones calculations. It calls into question why these cameras were priced so high to begin with. How can a company slash a $50,000 camera in half almost on a whim without the cameras actually being replaced by new tech? Bleeding-edge tech shouldn't draw this much blood. If camera's drop in price this much they should be replaced by new tech and the DSMC2 system isn't exactly new tech - it's just sharing the old tech.

RED isn't like any other camera company - it's part of the reason we love them. Though that doesn't exclude them from being compared to other camera companies. So when weighing the options between a RED or an ARRI we need to look at how the cameras devalue over time and what the ROI is going to be after 2-4 years. Which company is going to be more predictable in it's pricing and model iterations? RED might have been better off just announcing the DSMC2 system with a small price drop. Owners would still be excited about the upgrade possibility the new unified platform, owners that recently bought wouldn't feel too slighted about their camera losing value, and at the end of the day RED has higher profit margins.

In summary, it's completely fair to be very upset about the pricing changes but at the end of the day if you want your equipment to hold it's value you might be better off investing in lenses....or cryptocurrency ;)
Click to expand...

Lots of great insight and points except the cryptocurrency suggestion lol... That market is volatile x 1000000000
 
emil_h said:
Even though I completely agree with your sentiment, a car does not depreciate 20-25% the moment you drive it. More like 10%.
Click to expand...


It really depends what car you buy as well to know how much value it holds over time.
 
Jarred Land said:
We actually give a shit.
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Yes all the F*cking way. Everyone at RED has been quick and happy to solve any issues I have, and the people here on RU also steps up to help each other out. This is a solid community of give-a-shitters (but not shitter-givers - let's not try to figure out what those are).
 
Jarred Land said:
There is such a big difference though. We actually give a shit. And unlike the above examples, we didn't lower prices because we have a new shiny toy. We lowered prices because I woke up one day and realized our cameras were more expensive than they should be. It strayed from the foundation of why we started this company.
Click to expand...

Thanks for giving a shit! I love everything about the way RED operates. I don't mean to say that I'm against the upgrade paths or the new platform at all - only that it's understandable that people feel upset. I myself, as an Epic-W owner, don't feel cheated in any way because I'm on the other side of the table. It might not always be about money for you but many people on this forum work their tails off every single day to make money and take care of their families so it makes sense that they might get upset when the value of their camera get's cut. Emotions are OK and should be expected. Jarred, you're right on all accounts and the fact that RED lowered prices on their cameras is incredible for the future of anyone looking at buying a RED or upgrading their current one. It's a big accomplishment for RED.

I appreciate that RED isn't a normal camera company. My main concern with weighing the options of an upgrade to DSMC2 is the what lies in the future. With other camera companies there is a certain degree of predictability that drives investments and purchases. We typically know within 6 months if Canon is going to replace one of their models and we can probably make educated guesses a year leading up to it - it's predictable and people like that because they can say "I'm not going to buy this camera because I know it's going to be replaced in 6 months - I'll wait for the new model". The way that the Gemini was announced only 6 weeks before a major overhaul of the lineup paired with a price cut sort makes me question what RED has in the future. What's the roadmap of the next year? What's the vision?

Are we going to upgrade to the new DSMC2 system only to find out that there is a DSMC3 or some other new platform six months later? Can we feel safe investing further into the DSMC2 platform? After all, half of the investment into RED is in the accessories which don't have the same upgrade paths that the brains have.

Additionally, you mentioned that you don't have a timetable for the upgrade window. Will you give warning before it closes?
 
Tyler Clements said:
______

What's the roadmap of the next year? What's the vision?

Are we going to upgrade to the new DSMC2 system only to find out that there is a DSMC3 or some other new platform six months later? Can we feel safe investing further into the DSMC2 platform? After all, half of the investment into RED is in the accessories which don't have the same upgrade paths that the brains have.

Additionally, you mentioned that you don't have a timetable for the upgrade window. Will you give warning before it closes?
Click to expand...

Tyler, I obviously cannot comment on our roadmap. Our competitors would love the have that hand tipped here, ha. As far as DSMC2, Jarred has gone on record that DSMC2 is here to stay until at least 2020. And, to be fair, the accessory compatibility has not changed, same since WEAPON announced in 2015.

We generally give a "last call" heads up on upgrade programs, yes.
 
emil_h said:
Even though I completely agree with your sentiment, a car does not depreciate 20-25% the moment you drive it. More like 10%.
Click to expand...

I don‘t know where you live, but here in Switzerland this is the case. The higher the price of the car, the more and faster is the depreciation. Mercedes, Audi, BMW that cost 100K ish loose 25% value as soon as you drive out of the garage.
Smaller and cheaper cars in the 20K ish, 10-15%.

ADDING: This is why it is always wiser to wait a little bit and buy an almost new second hand car with very few kilometers. You save at least 20-25%. We call it the first and big depreciation in car chargon.
You can apply this to expensive camera gears too.

If you want to be at the edge of technology you always pay more.
 
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Thanks Brent! That's all the assurance I wanted to hear - I don't need timelines of new products just a general level of commitment to current platforms.
 
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