Tim Sutherland
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I agree with you emil. I always tell myself that every time I make a purchase for a camera that I think is out of my budget or when I purchase a camera that is in a low price range.
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DSMC2 Unified Dragon-X
- Thread starter Jarred Land
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I agree with you emil. I always tell myself that every time I make a purchase for a camera that I think is out of my budget or when I purchase a camera that is in a low price range.
chase kempf
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I'd just like to say that I own the Red ONE, the Original Scarlet (which we all waited on for years but I still use today) and my DSMC1 Red Epic Dragon. This Dragon is awesome! I'm very frustrated that Red doesn't support repairs for this great camera anymore. Most all of the other cameras makers can repair the oldest generation professional cameras! I don't need to upgrade cause this 6K Dragon still kicks ass!
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I'll expand on that as that post was more aimed at Scarlet-W people.
I very, very much believe that come January this will be the only ever upgrade path for Raven owners. Jarred has expressed the upgrade will likely land in the $8500 zone to go to Dragon-X 5K S35 and I don't think he's gone into detail on if that includes and EF or PL Mount. Dragon-X 5K S35 is $14,950. Basically the savings are $6,450. I have already seen Ravens sell lower than that just a couple times. Most float in a higher price point when sold used usually due to included accessories.
The major values I see from going from Raven to Dragon-X 5K:
- 5K 96fps (not to mention the useful aspect ratios of the 4.5K resolutions)
- Interchangeable Lens Mounts, PL being the real big one for practical work
- Interchangeable OLPFs, might not be a bit deal for some
- The ability to film with Anamorphic Lenses
- Continued value of being on a camera that has an upgrade path
This is an option put together by Jarred. He's said a few times it's never going to be on the RED site officially, but I have seen the pleas from users looking to upgrade Raven and step up into a bigger sensor and more capable body.
It will likely not make sense for some people, but for people who have the need, want, and desire; this upgrade is a pretty big deal.
Just my thoughts though.
So are we going to get a Raven path price point or at least the window of the week it will be available? It's hard to plan things, especially limited time things that cost thousands of dollars, with information blanks.
I was an early adopter of the Raven, as it was my entry into the RED ecosystem and don't get me wrong, I love it, but the truth of the matter, is where I'm at career wise - is that producers hire the paintbrush and not the painter. I'm already getting the looks of "oh it's not the Alexa" and now they want 8k because they want latest and greatest buzzwords when marketing - regardless that they'll finish on YouTube in 1080
I was an early adopter of the Raven, as it was my entry into the RED ecosystem and don't get me wrong, I love it, but the truth of the matter, is where I'm at career wise - is that producers hire the paintbrush and not the painter. I'm already getting the looks of "oh it's not the Alexa" and now they want 8k because they want latest and greatest buzzwords when marketing - regardless that they'll finish on YouTube in 1080
emil_h
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Unless you know something we don't know, I'm not sure where all of your ifs, likelies and uncertantity are coming from since Jarred clearly stated that the upgrade would be $8,500 and at no point did he mention or hint of anything else such as mounts or accessories being included in that price. Of course he might surprise everyone which he is known to do but as of now it's an upgrade for $8,500.
There's no doubt that the X is a better camera than the raven so there's no need to upsell that but idk if it's $8,500 better. I've also seen plenty of Raven brains sell for around 7K and I'd argue it's better to just sell it used and use that money to get a different camera/sensor unless you LOVE the Dragon and than I'd still probably just stick with the Raven or buy a used 6K Dragon Weapon.
Anyways just my thoughts...
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I'm so excited with the re release of the 5K Dragon, that means my amazing Scarlet-W sensor is still relevant until at least 5 years from now 
I think RED should make the Dragon-X a 6K camera instead.
I think RED should make the Dragon-X a 6K camera instead.Kristin Stewart
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William, I'm using a Scarlet-W right now but before we used a Scarlet-X, Red One, etc...
Here's what I would like to see because you asked so ;-)
- Red should stop releasing a new body every year which devaluates all the previous ones, upsets a bunch of the actual owners and brings almost no improvement (I mean by that looking at the final picture projected on a cinema screen, not by looking at the specifications). Arri doesn't do that and the Arri Mini/Alexa picture is still beautiful and widely used by professionals. You don't see almost no Red in the Academy nominees, and there's a reason.
- If Red really believes in their ridiculous and pretentious marketing moto "Obsolescence Obsolete", they should put an included warranty of 5 years on every new brain sold. Why a customer would have to pay for an extra warranty because Red isn't sure of the reliability of their cameras ? Every other manufacturer (Sony, Canon, Panasonic) for any cheaper camera has a better customer service
- For the very same reason, they should be able to repair their previous models, Red One included, for at least 20 years. Of course it would be easier to do if they didn't release a new camera every year. Unless Obsolescence isn't very obsolete ?
- As for the cameras : 3 models are enough : entry (4K), medium (6K) and high (8K) level. And they update them every 5 years, giving the possibility to every previous owner some upgrade paths.
- The Red phone will be abandoned , it's just a matter of time till they realize no one cares about another phone except some spoiled children or immature fanboys. And 3D is dead. In fact 3D has never been alive, a simple look at the Cinema History will prove that. It was just some punctual marketing things, nothing lasted.
- Instead of the phone, if Red really wants to build something useful, they could release a still camera, very simple, with a full frame 8K sensor, no back LCD, just a good EVF, no burst mode more than 5 fps (above that you use a Red camera instead) and sell it for $4K. They have all the components to do it, just cripple the actual 8K sensor a little bit. Something with interchangeable mounts (EF, E, Nikon, Pentax, etc...) It would be way more useful than the phone, especially if they release a Monochrome version as well.
Kristin
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Hi Kristin, I'd like to tackle a few of your points and desires from a slightly more observational perspective (if you don't mind).
- Camera Models, Release Frequency: I'm not entirely sure you can say some of the more recent models "bring almost no improvement". Monstro, Helium, and Gemini are all pretty big leaps in terms of sensor technology and format size. In regards to Dragon-X 5K, the only approximate cross-grade you could make is from Scarlet-W and there are notable features like higher frame rates that would be appealing. It won't be for some, but for those who are looking for a bit more, it's there. In terms of devaluing, perhaps maybe to Scarlet-W a smidge. Pre-unified DSMC2 Dragon bodies are still out there renting and doing work. And you will be able to still upgrade your Scarlet-W in the future. There were really no closed doors with this latest body.
- The Arri Method VS RED Approach: From my perspective, and I do know a bit more about what actually goes on behind the curtain at a few camera companies, the general POV I see from RED is they are proactive in the face of industry trends whereas Arri and a few other manufacturers are very reactive. A good recent example is 8K. RED has hit the 8K mark in two formats and in 2019 you will see most manufacturers finally step up to the 8K plate and I imagine it will take a couple specific manufacturers a bit longer to even try to get there. RED seems to like to be ahead of the curve. That's a fairly active direction towards manufacturing, engineering, and R&D. To add more to that, do remember Arri wanted very badly to release a 4K camera in 2011 featuring a new sensor, but it never made it to market for many reasons. And just to note, even Arri has been making improvements over the years which is why you see Classics going for very little these days, they just occur in a different form and some many don't even know happened it seems.
- Obsolescence Obsolete - Has always meant a few things to me. Staying a bit ahead of trends/curve and having a reliable upgrade path. While you can make and interesting conversation about "all technology is eventually obsolete", literally all of RED's cameras ever released delivery at a minimum 4K resolution image. Which is why you have seen some people hang onto their older bodies and ride them out until the wheels spin off. Technology however does advance. The biggest I can really see that have benefited RED over the years has been advancements in color, dynamic range, workflow, and flexible format sizes.
- Warranty - If you think any camera manufacturer could support a camera for 20 years, you'd be pretty out of the loop. I'd say on the long end of 5-7 years it's very hard to keep that generations parts and even the core methods of manufacturing some of the components might be "gone". RED does give you a 2 year standard warranty and you can extend that to 4 years via the Armor.
- Customer Service - Honestly disagree with you here. RED's made some massive improvements in the last 4 years in particular on this front. I do see some "lag" for the lack of a better word occasionally when international upgrades or similar go in, but that's pretty commonplace at this rather strange point in international dealings.
- Camera Reliability - I must be living in an alternate universe where cameras aren't exploding all around me. And the funny thing is, I do try to break them. There was a time when RED was a lot less reliable, but it's been a full generation of pretty good functionality and dependability. Especially with DSMC2 bodies. I see cameras beat to hell and certainly chaos can happen, but that will always vary on a case by case basis and how people treat their gear.
- Hydrogen - Jim's likely sticking with this for a while. At the moment this is not even the tip of the spear with this generation 1 tech. Remember with just mentioning the term 3D you seem to be ignoring VR, which is still a very active world. As is AR and MR and growing for the next few years a lot. We have yet to see if H4V finds a place in "cinema" application, but you're assuming for it to be successful it needs to "make it" there. And to the point of the tech itself, 3D has been a bastard due to the chaos of glasses and single mode displays. The DLB tech in Hydrogen can be both 2D and H4V. Thus providing a casual experience for the user with the technology, which is why it is interesting for many. And just a few thoughts as modules and perhaps even Android hold importance, it is an interesting future ahead of us. My earliest tests for a few people with the phone was filming remotes to upload directly to network and generating a concise workflow for that style of ENG. Just that market alone is worth exploring IMO.
- A RED just still camera - If RED released a still minded camera with what many know to be standard features such as rear LCDs and not to mention literally every camera shoots motion now, I think that would be a weird move. Especially once you see what two companies have coming next year. But yes, I'd love to see something evolve in some way.
AndreeMarkefors
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Yet another point of view from a highly observational perspective. The following applies mostly to owners/operators and enthusiasts. A market segment that I would love to see RED succeed in, but that seems increasingly tough to dominate with "high end" cameras going forward:
'Obsolescence Obsolete', to me, boils down to: you get to re-invest $5-20K every year (essentially price of many new cameras), while keeping your old shit (not actually getting new camera). All while enjoying the privileges of 'lock-in'.
OK, so that might be a bit harsh. RED did some very generous buybacks early on where people basically got all their money back for a used camera if they upgraded. It goes without saying that such an approach isn't sustainable.
The main thing to me though, is that it really seems like such a huge strategic mistake on RED's part. Normally, used cameras get sold to new first time buyers who might not afford a new camera, but who still can start investing in the system as a whole—widening the user base.
Instead, RED is buying back old cameras that they can't possibly use for much. Do they give them to schools? This expense could have been shaven off the retail price of new cameras making them more accessible.
I wonder if BMD's releasing the Pocket 4K with all its features, large monitor and tidy menu system—including their Studio version of Resove/Fusion/Fairlight—for $1299 gives people pause?
I'm actually not knocking RED or their products, but 'Obsolescence Obsolete' isn't a gift. It's just another way to sell stuff: bits and pieces instead of whole cameras. You keep your dinged up stuff and pay "less" for your "new" camera.
'Obsolescence Obsolete', to me, boils down to: you get to re-invest $5-20K every year (essentially price of many new cameras), while keeping your old shit (not actually getting new camera). All while enjoying the privileges of 'lock-in'.
OK, so that might be a bit harsh. RED did some very generous buybacks early on where people basically got all their money back for a used camera if they upgraded. It goes without saying that such an approach isn't sustainable.
The main thing to me though, is that it really seems like such a huge strategic mistake on RED's part. Normally, used cameras get sold to new first time buyers who might not afford a new camera, but who still can start investing in the system as a whole—widening the user base.
Instead, RED is buying back old cameras that they can't possibly use for much. Do they give them to schools? This expense could have been shaven off the retail price of new cameras making them more accessible.
I wonder if BMD's releasing the Pocket 4K with all its features, large monitor and tidy menu system—including their Studio version of Resove/Fusion/Fairlight—for $1299 gives people pause?
I'm actually not knocking RED or their products, but 'Obsolescence Obsolete' isn't a gift. It's just another way to sell stuff: bits and pieces instead of whole cameras. You keep your dinged up stuff and pay "less" for your "new" camera.
jordan levy
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RED gives you a 2 year standard warranty and you can extend it 2 years with armor?
I thought I had a one year warranty and I extended it 2 years with armor?
Personally do wish I could extend the warranty even more as this will be the sole reason I probably sell my camera, or else id keep it for a lot longer.
I also personally don't think they should ever hold back with ingenuity and new products, the faster they come out the more we benefit from the tool.
I already think in some areas like wifi and wireless technologies, focus, RED is a little behind.
The trade in programs are a gift, no one has to do that, though I think they realize that and they are making it make less and less sense. I think they should do a battle tested or used program where you get you camera certified by them and they list it and sell it for you and take a little off the top. that would benefit more people then trade ins and get the used camera out there working again.
anyway...
William Long
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Hi Kristin, thanks for your answer and fair comment to you!
)It's interesting that one Scarlet-W user is not so happy and another is very happy!
The camera we both use, is completely sufficient for everything I need to do and to be honest I don't need more. Fundamentally that is the only question that matters. I am not interested in this company's strategy in terms of what it should or should not be doing in the future - chiefly because, for me, they have already delivered. Then they produce a Gemini and inevitably I begin dreaming of those two extra stops! In documentary, this is a groundbreaking difference. But like you, I can't afford that sort of money straight away and I was worried that time would run out on that offer.
What happens next? They provide a stepping stone.... Dragon-X!
I can't say that I see my camera as an investment; it is a fantastic tool and this company keeps producing improvements that help me to do more.
What more could you possibly want?
Perhaps what is recognised by some as Dylan, or Lincoln and is actually the poet Lydgate applies here:
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.
Adam Hale
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I wondered if someone could clarify something for me – and apologies if this has already been covered in the thread, I’ve read through and I’m still unsure.
If I buy the new Dragon X now can I upgrade it to Gemini later, when I have the money, by just paying $4950USD or do I also have to pay $5900USD for Armour-W?
If I buy the new Dragon X now can I upgrade it to Gemini later, when I have the money, by just paying $4950USD or do I also have to pay $5900USD for Armour-W?
William Long
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To upgrade to Gemini costs $4950.
Armour is additional if you require sensor swapping benefits etc.
Armour is additional if you require sensor swapping benefits etc.
Adam Hale
Member
Great. Thanks for quick response William! I thought that was the case but just wasn’t sure.
Mario Gonsalves
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Do you get a new body if you're upgrading from SW? Or same body just different panels and swapped internals? I see the Dragon-X is all black.
Jim Skinner
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Lots of camera choices
Lots of camera choices
I agree Andree. There’s lots of odd advice on this board. This week the prevailing myth is that a DP should be happy to pay $5k for a minor frame rate increase (Scarlet-W to Dragon-X). People shooting lots of hours with a small budget do not think this way. We count our pennies. We think “Hey the c300 Mark II is down to $9k, and it has a proper pre-amp VS a $5k upgrade plus a $4750 pre-amp module to get the same functionality”. And when someone like me gets asked to build out a 6-8 camera production that $5k fee to keep gear “upgradeable” looks like $40k of the budget just disappeared. I have to justify this kind of expense to people that don’t know a thing about cameras.
If we are being honest with ourselves that entry level Dragon is $5k over the market for pre-amp-less cameras with astronomically priced media.
Lots of camera choices
I agree Andree. There’s lots of odd advice on this board. This week the prevailing myth is that a DP should be happy to pay $5k for a minor frame rate increase (Scarlet-W to Dragon-X). People shooting lots of hours with a small budget do not think this way. We count our pennies. We think “Hey the c300 Mark II is down to $9k, and it has a proper pre-amp VS a $5k upgrade plus a $4750 pre-amp module to get the same functionality”. And when someone like me gets asked to build out a 6-8 camera production that $5k fee to keep gear “upgradeable” looks like $40k of the budget just disappeared. I have to justify this kind of expense to people that don’t know a thing about cameras.
If we are being honest with ourselves that entry level Dragon is $5k over the market for pre-amp-less cameras with astronomically priced media.
Patrick Tresch
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You bring a good point. Good pream is a must have in the market where those cameras are situated.
Pat
kevinjoelson
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A small RED still camera with interchangeable mounts would make an awesome digital directors viewfinder for location scouts and storyboarding!
Adam Hale
Member
Until now I have only hired Red on a project-by-project basis – I’ve owned Canon, Panasonic and Sony cameras. So I thought I would briefly share my perspective as someone looking to buy in to Red for the first time.
I had been planning to buy Gemini sometime next year, but now the Dragon X package looks like a really good proposition that will allow me to get in to the Red ecosystem sooner, with the Gemini upgrade as an affordable option, as and when I can justify it. Previously, Raven and Scarlet-W felt too hamstrung and didn’t seem worth it, and Epic-W was a bit too much of a stretch. With this new DSMC2 line up, and the Dragon X package it’s possible for people in my position to jump aboard without having reservations about buying a “lesser” Red that required heavy sensor cropping for higher frame rates.
A lot of negative feedback about what Red are doing with this new implementation of the Dragon sensor, but from my perspective the Red landscape is looking more enticing than ever!
I had been planning to buy Gemini sometime next year, but now the Dragon X package looks like a really good proposition that will allow me to get in to the Red ecosystem sooner, with the Gemini upgrade as an affordable option, as and when I can justify it. Previously, Raven and Scarlet-W felt too hamstrung and didn’t seem worth it, and Epic-W was a bit too much of a stretch. With this new DSMC2 line up, and the Dragon X package it’s possible for people in my position to jump aboard without having reservations about buying a “lesser” Red that required heavy sensor cropping for higher frame rates.
A lot of negative feedback about what Red are doing with this new implementation of the Dragon sensor, but from my perspective the Red landscape is looking more enticing than ever!
Patrick Tresch
Well-known member
From your perspective your absolutly right.
The Dragon-X is a great way to enter the RED ecosystem. You enjoy the matured and solid tech Weapon has aquired during those years and the price is very atractive.