DSMC Menu Confusion

[Tom Gleeson]

I do not understand Red's approach on the placement and treatment in the menu’s of the way shutter speed responds to changes if frames per second (FPS.) Originally found in the menu tree under "Display" Red have now changed its position so its now found in "Overlays." Neither position is intuitive or logical. In my mind I do not associate or connect Display or Overlays with shutter speed adjustment. Why is this setting lumped in with the way the camera displays Lens, Power, VU Meter and Histogram information? Why is this important setting in Overlays when if it is set incorrectly it inherently changes the nature of the image?

This problem is compounded as the cameras default setting is for the shutter speed not to change with FPS. This is a HDSLR convention not a cinema camera convention. This goes back to the days of film where shutter and speed were locked together.

Certainly there are times where decoupling shutter speed from FPS is valuable but this is the exception not the rule. Shutter speeds that vary far from 1/48 and 1/50th change the very character of the moving image.

Also the new nomenclature describing the shutters relationship tp FPS is even now more confusing. This is how the moderation Manual describes it

EXPOSURE
Shutter Speed: Displays the exposure time in seconds (1/xx sec). When you change the frame rate in this mode, the shutter speed stays the same, but the shutter angle changes. (Default)
Shutter Angle: Displays the exposure as an angle (1° to 360°). When you change the frame rate in this mode, the shutter angle stays the same, but the shutter speed changes.

This is confusing as you have these settings under "Overlay" and then it describes them as “Shutter Speed” and “Shutter Angle” therefore you could easily assume this setting only changes the description of the shutter speed*. In fact it actually couples and decouples the shutter speed to the FPS !!! Confusing?

Red should consider pulling this vital setting out of "Overlay" and add it to the the Main Menu window (Upper Status Row.) When you select the Shutter speed you also get the Advanced button and this is a better more logical position for locking or unlocking the shutter to FPS. This setting can also be reached Menu>Settings>Project>Exposure which makes way more sense to me. Personally I liked absolute and relative as descriptions but if this is out of favour why not a checkbox named “Lock Shutter Speed to Framerate.”


* I understand why Red has chosen the terms “Shutter Speed” and “Shutter Angle” but I am suggesting they are not sufficiently specific or descriptive.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

As much as I love RED I have always thought this was so not intuitive .... I come from film and I have always asked that there was a simple menu action so that it behaved like a film camera. I wish the setting was as simple as "film" and ...well something else when it is uncoupled. Totally agree Tom......

 

[Aaron Lochert]

It makes perfect sense to me. You're defining a rule of logic for the camera to obey when displaying the exposure status on screen (overlay).

When you set the camera to display shutter speed or shutter angle, you're saying "Hey camera, don't change this parameter until I change it." You're basically telling the camera which one is a priority to you: do you want the exposure to stay constant or do you want the motion blur to stay constant?

If you want the camera to display shutter speed, but automatically change it when you change framerate, then you're not actually concerned with the shutter speed. You're concerned with the ratio of shutter speed to framerate. Well guess what, that's shutter angle by definition. An uncouple/decouple option I believe would add another layer of confusion because there's basically two schools of thought: the DSLR way or the motion-picture film way. A "couple-shutter-speed-to-framerate" option is a long winded way of saying shutter angle and adds a layer of complexity to film people that really just want to manually set a 180 deg shutter.

I do agree with you on one thing: I always felt that displaying shutter angle should be the default option, as it's far more a cinema camera than a stills camera but that doesn't bother me too terribly much. I have a preset set up specifically for fresh firmware that enables all my preferences in one fell swoop.

 

[Phil Holland]

Fascinating feedback and oddly the first time I've heard any real conflict regarding this in literally years.

So first thing's first.

Menu>Overlays>Status>Camera

That menu controls how information is displayed on the HUD mainly. You have:
- Exposure: Shutter Speed or Shutter Angle
- Power: Current Battery Percentage or Total Time Remaining (for batteries that communicate that info)
- VU Meter: Input or Output
- Histogram: RGB or Luminance
- Media: Percentage or Time Remaining

This particular menu controls the display of that information.

In the case of Shutter Angle, it does maintain your Shutter Angle across different frame rates. When that happens, under the hood your Shutter Speed is indeed physically changing to maintain that Angle.

Both Shutter Modes are tied to how you'd expect them to operate via their unique operating concepts. As for it coming with 180 degrees as default, perhaps that's a conversation, but bare in mind RED cameras are used all over the world and one man's 1/48th @ 24p/180 degrees may not work well for somebody working in broadcast or other regions. And in bounds to that point, I do feel that information is pretty clearly displayed. And for those it is not, I created the DSMC Field Ops Guide. Perhaps this is a topic I need to expand on in this case?

The other mode to display Shutter Speed is also useful especially for those who pay attention to various flicker-free concepts in various countries where you'd likely land in the 1/30th, 1/60th, 1/120th or 1/25th, 1/50th, and 1/100th territories.

I've seen professionals around the world work both ways, honestly shouldn't be a point of confusion especially in 2018.

 

[andrewhake]

I think one simple way to help clear up confusion would be to add a toggle option when you select Exposure from the top menu. Have a toggle for Shutter Speed / Shutter Angle in the same way the Gemini has a toggle for switching from Standard to Lowlight when you press ISO in the top menu.

I think the confusion comes from this toggle being in Overlays instead of the Exposure menu directly. Being in Overlays, it doesn't seem like it would actually have any effect on Exposure time, just the way it is displayed. Having this in the Exposure menu would make it more consistent with other controls, and also make it easier to get to.

Something like this would be great:

And this would be when selecting the Exposure menu, not Framerate of course. Just couldn't find a grab of the exposure menu.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Phil,

I generally agree with you and I understand this is only a minor issue but I would stand by the proposition that this menu function position is not intuitive and a casual user of the camera system is unlikely to initially search for shutter function under "Overlays." Anyone who is day to day familiar with RED and/or reads the manual or your excellent DSMC Field Ops Guide will of course not have this problem but many people use multiple camera systems. If I was less familiar with Red OS I would naturally check the shutter menu position first and frankly Overlays would probably be the last place I would look. IMHO it is better to place all shutter functionality in the Main Menu window (Upper Status Row) so when you select the Shutter speed you also get the Advanced button and this is a better more logical position for locking or unlocking the shutter to FPS. I like Andre's mock up but as he says put it in the Exposure Menu. Anyway this is just a suggestion for improvement.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

As much as I love RED I have always thought this was so not intuitive .... I come from film and I have always asked that there was a simple menu action so that it behaved like a film camera. I wish the setting was as simple as "film" and ...well something else when it is uncoupled. Totally agree Tom......

Peter,

Every time I curse Red menu complexity I just think "Sony Menus" and I feel alot better. Having said that I have heard Sony has made a big effort with the Venice camera to improve their GUI. Sadly I am yet to shoot anything with the Venice.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I do agree with you on one thing: I always felt that displaying shutter angle should be the default option, as it's far more a cinema camera than a stills camera but that doesn't bother me too terribly much. I have a preset set up specifically for fresh firmware that enables all my preferences in one fell swoop.

this!! shutter angle MUST BE DEFAULT.

 

[Aaron Lochert]

Perhaps just adding the word "Priority" would make it more intuitive.

"Shutter Angle Priority" or "Shutter Speed Priority" would make a whole lot of sense to me on first read. The menu setting can say "Setting to Angle priority maintains a constant ratio of exposure time to framerate, ensuring consistent motion blur between framerates. Setting to Speed priority maintains a constant exposure time, no matter the framerate."

I still feel like it logically fits in the overlays menu because you can achieve the same exact result either way, it's just how you think about working. But I could see it being in the exposure menu as well, though that's currently 4 menus deep and under the "Project" menu, which I feel like is not a project-wide setting. I might change to shutter speed for flicker reasons on a specific shot or scene, as Phil said, but then go back to shutter angle for the rest of a project.

 

[Oron Cohen]

Oh man, I started another thread about this: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?171131-Angel-(relative)-Time-(absolute)-settings&p=1825240#post1825240

But maybe this thread is actually better to discuss. I will say this, I'm not good with menus and such and prefer the old film cameras that had two buttons consider this, I've spend over 45min to look for that stupid menu and couldn't find it, then I felt I want to smash the camera into a wall, then I decided it's better to post here and ask!

Personally I'm still confused, in film cameras we have shutter angle (physical shutter), but no shutter speed, so what's the deal with this "relationship" between shutter angle to shutter speed RED? why it can't just be Shutter angle? OR displaying the shutter angle in speeds?

Hope I'm clear..

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

I personnally would really like to have back the choice we had on Red One.

Being able to display shutter speeds in relative to the framerate. Not only shutter angles in relative.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

This is 2018. Most folks who shoot today don't know about the shutter angle principle. In my earlier times when shooting 24 fps in a 50hz environment switching the shutter from 180 degrees to 172.8 was easily achieved, with a screwdriver. Today, it would require some calculation. Most people I know forgot how to use the rule of three, or never learned it. We should make things as simple as possible. 50hz = 1/50, 60hz =1/60 or 1/48. Natural motion blur = double the fps. Easy rules of thump everybody can learn. Much easier to accomplish than the shutter angle principle. I'm talking from a university teaching perspective. Let's leave it like it is.

Hans

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

If I was less familiar with Red OS I would naturally check the shutter menu position first and frankly Overlays would probably be the last place I would look. IMHO it is better to place all shutter functionality in the Main Menu window (Upper Status Row) so when you select the Shutter speed you also get the Advanced button and this is a better more logical position for locking or unlocking the shutter to FPS.

AMEN.

 

[Ty Hunt]

As much as I love RED I have always thought this was so not intuitive .... I come from film and I have always asked that there was a simple menu action so that it behaved like a film camera. I wish the setting was as simple as "film" and ...well something else when it is uncoupled. Totally agree Tom......

That would be kind of awesome.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I would like to have:

1. All exposure related things be to found under an ”advanced” tab under the main exposure tab.

2. When shooting HDRx I would like to see both exposures under the exposure tab in degrees or exposure time / what ever the user prefere.

3. An option under the same main menue exposure tab where we set exposure relative to time or fps.

if set relative to fps then if you are in 1/50 exposure and change framerate to 50 from 25 fps your exposure time would follow and be become 1/100 and opposite if you prefere relative to time it would remain 1/50.

But personally degrees and relative to fps is the way to go.

 

[Phil Holland]

1. Interesting

2. The biggest thing we were able to get RED to implement is the shortcut key that you can use to toggle HDRx tabs. That then shows you both the exposure and the correct info for each track if I'm not mistaken.

3. There is so much danger in allowing the camera making that decision for you and in the example sited you should just make a user preset at that point. These cameras are in many regions and people shoot at wildy all over the map FPS.