DSMC Camera Firmware release 5.1.55 and 5.2.21 beta

[David Battistella]

What you said was, "... people do want to record dailies or whatever that way, but hey, they're dailies right." and for many people, that's not right, they record the SDI feed, and that's their deliverable. You keep calling it a "video tap" and the recordings "dailies" but neither of these have been like their counterparts in the film world for a long time. I shoot knowing that my final image is going to come out of a color suite, but my clients want the monitor on my set to look as much like the finished product as possible. In the film days, when a client was worried about the image they saw on the tap, you let them look through the lens. Today, the monitor on the set is the look through the lens.

I completely understand Red's commitment to raw recording. But they've also enabled this ecosystem of SDI recorders by putting start-stop signals on that feed. They are not fighting that workflow, they are just not producing it themselves. The Red ecosystem has always included far more than just the things Red produces. And nobody is asking Red to go down a "'1080 is good enough' rabbit hole". What they're saying is that the SDI feed from the camera, that everybody on the set judges the picture by, and that some people record as a deliverable, should not be an afterthought.

Now FWIW, i don't know if I don't know if any of the issues addressed by DEB are present in the SDI signal. I understand that signal is pre-redcode compression, so if the red noise is a product of the raw compression, then it may not be an issue for that workflow at all. But if I may quote you, "doing stuff in camera to make the video tap look better (as an argument)" certainly does make sense to me.

I kinda nd a agree with this.

Im all for the best of what RED can give us and generally, I think they give us everything that they can out of their cameras. Quoting rob, it seems that the dragon 1080 is already pretty great.

Correct. I would not be able to use my Dragon on most television shoots if it weren't for Pix/Nano, etc. 50mbps is the limit for some network TV shows I shoot. Others are ProRes at 145. What is great is that I can use Dragon and introduce them to it, even at 1080. Very important note is that Dragon's 1080 out is ultra clean and better than my Sony F cameras. This is my real world experience. 1080 out from Dragon is gorgeous and perfect for many network and cable productions as well as shoot and ship clients.




For my own company productions however, we shoot and post with 6K files. The last set of commercials we produced were finished with DPX files at Light Iron and VFX from The Mill. So, having both 4/5/6K as well as 1080 out record options allow Epic/Dragon to thrive in an even wider body of client work.

Since it's a client feed, then I am guessing most people are not sending a log image out this pipeline, which is where you might see most of the noise. My other guess is that if you have clients standing around looking at this image, then there is a lighting budget involved.

If you've lit everything correctly, put a look on that image to make it look great, the I doubt anyone is delivering a file that needs DEB processing, which from what I am seeing, works best in extreme cases, like what Phil has been posting. dEb and ADD are post tools designed to get the most out of a RAW workflow.

I doubt many people are under exposing by three stops with the onset monitor. So it shouldn't be an issue for them. Plus they are extracting that 1080 from a 6k sensor. It's not a 1:1 center crop in RCX, sitting at your computer.

And just to be clear one more time. I'm not against anyone using a pix, blade, atmos, blackmagic, etc. I've run that workflow myself. I'm glad the camera can do that.

as a side note, "my style of production" or shoots I am on, etc. there's a ton of stuff I do that I can't post or don't talk about. I just sorta include personal projects on Reduser.

The iso 400 thread is a great example of the huge success a user had, lighting to the monitor, making the client happy, recording a proxy out the HD-SDI all on dragon, with zero noise issues on a set that had a majority limbo background. I don't see the "noise issue" in the r3d, so I guess it's not in the proxies as well.

lets be clear, folks are already running this workflow with no issues.

So now people are saying it should be in camera? That's for RED to decide and I think Jarred and Graeme already explained why.

Battistella

 

[Nick Morrison]

Correct. I would not be able to use my Dragon on most television shoots if it weren't for Pix/Nano, etc. 50mbps is the limit for some network TV shows I shoot. Others are ProRes at 145. What is great is that I can use Dragon and introduce them to it, even at 1080. Very important note is that Dragon's 1080 out is ultra clean and better than my Sony F cameras. This is my real world experience. 1080 out from Dragon is gorgeous and perfect for many network and cable productions as well as shoot and ship clients.

For my own company productions however, we shoot and post with 6K files. The last set of commercials we produced were finished with DPX files at Light Iron and VFX from The Mill. So, having both 4/5/6K as well as 1080 out record options allow Epic/Dragon to thrive in an even wider body of client work.

Love hearing about your multiple workflows. Thanks for sharing!

best

 

[Jan Reiff]

You can argue for and against... amira kicks out 200fps full sensor log or with a 3dlut to proress... it will for sure attract quite a few.

Here is a little amira test we did. It's straight from camera no grading.... and no stabilizing in post... Some friends are building a camera car together with volvos R&D team... which is quite cool, the tech guys at volvo had no budget restrains... so they made a 600 horsepower super volvo and put the scorpio crane on it

https://vimeo.com/100209902


I think a lot of people want just that clean picture straight from camera... the DP does the primary grading etc... I hate it, find it boring and want nothing of it, but for sure producers like to have a good looking image right there in the monitor and then care nothing more about it trough editing and so on. Most does not want to pay DIT's data vranglers, transcodes etc. But personally I agree with you, I do not want that type of clients, I want to get out the best of whats possible and then a RAW workflow is the only way... so my philosophy is to tell the clients to just take it, raw or nothing

hard to judge about this Amira footage as even the "original" mov with 1.2GB is very compressed and quite noisy so ... would be interesting to push the blacks to ISO2000 and do a 1:1 crop up to 4K, to be fair with a Dragon comparison, that´s what a lot of people do since weeks ;-)

 

[Jan Reiff]

today we had an output on a big HD screen directly out of Dragon box. signal was very clean, i don´t see really any difference to the footage in noise aspects to other cams ... i would have no concerns to record this image - i will have a close look at this in the evening, ...

 

[Alain M]

This is Awesome...Thanks Phil, Toia for the samples n info sharing! Graeme you are a genius man...Keep it coming...

 

[Alain M]

I kind of agree…..The old OLPF was tested by all the Red "heavyweights" and worked great. Then we discovered some missteps……But the main body of work (with the old OLPF) was "off the charts". Wouldn't it make sense to go back to THIS starting point and amend from there? Instead of where we are here…….months and months away from what? In camera, not in camera, SDK on /off, will it be right?……Please, make it like every camera we've ever owned or rented. Shoot it and it's good! Please, RED team……this business with our Dragons is a heartache, make it right!

Steve look at the bright side: RED is constantly improving the image for all of us RED Users. If they have some glitches along the way, It's normal Because the are Not Normal. Normal companies don't improve shit for us "The Users" They release a new camera and you empty your pocket again and again. RED is closed to the users and they interact here with us...We cannot take this for granted! I think they are doing the right thing in keeping it in REDCINE X for now until it works across all platforms like Adobe, Davinci, Etc.

My 2 cents.

 

[Mark Toia]

Someday I may need that image immediacy,

And this is why PRORES or light codec cameras will beat RAW cameras... immediacy, Instant results, Speed and simplicity will always win over the masses.
And is the only reason why I have seem a few of my friends jump onto the SONY F5 and the ARRI, Instant results. They don't care about 4k or RAW, they want speed and simplicity.

I personally couldn't stand not having colour and ISO control after the fact, but a day will come when basic computers (laptops) will be powerful enough to gobble up R3D files into a timeline so we can all work as smoothly in 6k RAW as we do with HD PRORES.

I dream of that day.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

perhaps even to MX footage ( no promises )

Fingers crossed...

 

[Corey Robson]

Thanks Graeme and team, this is a great improvement.

To add to what Mark and others have mentioned, the lack of onboard Prores recording is THE reason most network shows will continue to shoot Arri, DEB or no DEB. I know R3D workflows are the way to go ideally but for many network post facilities R3Ds are not going to be embraced for the same reasons ARRIRAW won’t be considered either.

I'm well aware on set or near set transcoding to Prores is fine for many projects but series production managers and producers won't approve it simply because there is a substantial long-term labour expense added with transcoding that is a deal breaker. It's not just the DITs added overtime but there's also the driver that has to wait around for the camera truck to be ready to move plus another driver that has to wait to take the media to a dailies facility if one is used.

Just finish transcoding the next day you suggest? Not appealing to anyone to wait an extra day to watch dailies. Conform back to R3Ds for final grading? Not going to happen. I've been on a major network show that even sent DNxHD 115 proxies in for final grading when Prores4444 masters were available. Extremely tight delivery turnarounds for post / VFX dictate what we use on long form projects, 9 times out of 10.

I do use Samurai Blades with my Epics for quick Prores delivery when necessary but recording to an external device does not have the robustness, reliability, and professional looking appeal that in camera recording offers. If Red wants to seriously put a dent in Arri’s market share then optional onboard Prores recording covering all frame rates is a necessity. Committing to colour balance, colour space, and ASA in camera is not a big deal, we do it every day on Alexas and Canons. I hope this request is not viewed by Red as a slap in the face against R3D, it's simply about satisfying a deeply engrained prerequisite for a large market that they could possibly dominate. Redmag Prores recording plus in camera DEB and I would have no problem getting Dragons on set for next season.

 

[Rob Macey]

I kinda nd a agree with this.

Im all for the best of what RED can give us and generally, I think they give us everything that they can out of their cameras. Quoting rob, it seems that the dragon 1080 is already pretty great.







Since it's a client feed, then I am guessing most people are not sending a log image out this pipeline, which is where you might see most of the noise. My other guess is that if you have clients standing around looking at this image, then there is a lighting budget involved.

If you've lit everything correctly, put a look on that image to make it look great, the I doubt anyone is delivering a file that needs DEB processing, which from what I am seeing, works best in extreme cases, like what Phil has been posting. dEb and ADD are post tools designed to get the most out of a RAW workflow.

I doubt many people are under exposing by three stops with the onset monitor. So it shouldn't be an issue for them. Plus they are extracting that 1080 from a 6k sensor. It's not a 1:1 center crop in RCX, sitting at your computer.

And just to be clear one more time. I'm not against anyone using a pix, blade, atmos, blackmagic, etc. I've run that workflow myself. I'm glad the camera can do that.

as a side note, "my style of production" or shoots I am on, etc. there's a ton of stuff I do that I can't post or don't talk about. I just sorta include personal projects on Reduser.

The iso 400 thread is a great example of the huge success a user had, lighting to the monitor, making the client happy, recording a proxy out the HD-SDI all on dragon, with zero noise issues on a set that had a majority limbo background. I don't see the "noise issue" in the r3d, so I guess it's not in the proxies as well.

lets be clear, folks are already running this workflow with no issues.

So now people are saying it should be in camera? That's for RED to decide and I think Jarred and Graeme already explained why.

Battistella

What's really interesting is that the noise bar was filled to the top. Yet, I didn't have any noise on the r3d and of course the Pix recording. Here's a photo.

 

[Elsie N]

And this is why PRORES or light codec cameras will beat RAW cameras... immediacy, Instant results, Speed and simplicity will always win over the masses.
And is the only reason why I have seem a few of my friends jump onto the SONY F5 and the ARRI, Instant results. They don't care about 4k or RAW, they want speed and simplicity.

I personally couldn't stand not having colour and ISO control after the fact, but a day will come when basic computers (laptops) will be powerful enough to gobble up R3D files into a timeline so we can all work as smoothly in 6k RAW as we do with HD PRORES.

I dream of that day.

Mark, I agree completely. Maybe with one difference. That being that while, like you said, laptops will do this first, I think soon to follow will be either a chip inside the camera that does the gobbling or a small box just plugs into the camera through a high speed interface to process the RAW footage (8k at the time?) with millisecond time lag.

I read just recently of a new way of computing that will allow Moore's Law to continue its effect, and the Dragon, as someone stated, pretty much allows the DP to grade in camera now. We should be able to shoot a movie, cut it, and exhibit it within hours of wrap.

And while I too dream of that day when this all becomes true, it just won't be as much fun as it is now. Working with RAW in an NLE is probably as close as I'll ever come to being an artist.

 

[steve green]

Steve look at the bright side: RED is constantly improving the image for all of us RED Users. If they have some glitches along the way, It's normal Because the are Not Normal. Normal companies don't improve shit for us "The Users" They release a new camera and you empty your pocket again and again. RED is closed to the users and they interact here with us...We cannot take this for granted! I think they are doing the right thing in keeping it in REDCINE X for now until it works across all platforms like Adobe, Davinci, Etc.

My 2 cents.

Trust me I don't take Reds approach to the way they handle camera improvements or their close relationship with their customers for granted. I've got two cameras and I'm "all in" with Red. All I'm saying is IMO this Dragon fix needs to be incorporated in camera and not just leave it at the RCX level. What's frustrating is after waiting a year for the Dragon, then we have this issue surface, and now it's looking increasing likely it could be many months before it's corrected, at the camera level, anyway. There's no way I'll be "pushing" the exposure limits to the quoted specs of the Dragon until I know that the camera captures images at the same level as the DEB switch ON in RCX does.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

What's frustrating, is after waiting a year for the Dragon to, then we have this issue surface, and now it's looking increasing likely it could be many months before it's corrected, at the camera level, anyway.

I recall there was a lot of pushing for the Dragon to be released for a long long time. People questioning if it might not even make it out till late 2014. Dragon is here, but yes, these problems does make one wonder if there was a rush to meet frustrated demand.

 

[David Battistella]

What's really interesting is that the noise bar was filled to the top. Yet, I didn't have any noise on the r3d and of course the Pix recording. Here's a photo.

Yes. It makes sense. The dragon noise bar fills up faster because there are much more pixels. That same shot/framing would have a lower noise bar on MX because there are less pixels. Black, dark, low exposure areas are where the noise bar turns on, but if you checked with the exposure tool it would not be all purple because there are recoverable pixels in there.

Tools are part of the equation and your eyes have to be the other.

I looked at the r3d and the exposure looked great! Even at 800ISO and up it was clean, mostly because it was well exposed and lit initially.

Its great that you could hand over clean, quick turnaround files with your Dragon. Plus, in a sit down interview situation like that the pix is a no brainer. Did you have it rigged for run and gun too?

Battistella

 

[Nook Kim]

Yea but I shoot with clients looking at a monitor.

What Timur said.. and Matt, and many others.

Not many clients want to bother with workarounds, excuses or wait times for special treatment later on in post.

It's already very hard to update my partners how to shoot Reds properly everytime something changes.

I believe this "old OLPF", "new OLPF", "D.E.B" is starting to confuse the heck out of shooters.

On the post side, if I receive a project that was shot on an old OLPF and two new OLPF with 500 cuts to grade. Oh.. shit..

With all due respects to what you guys are doing to solve our problems, I hope this fix is just a step gap until you come up with in-camera fix.

 

[Roger Singh]

Does the latest non-beta firmware for the epic have rg4 as a selection? I've been on an older firmware for a while.

 

[Alain M]

Trust me I don't take Reds approach to the way they handle camera improvements or their close relationship with their customers for granted. I've got two cameras and I'm "all in" with Red. All I'm saying is IMO this Dragon fix needs to be incorporated in camera and not just leave it at the RCX level. What's frustrating is after waiting a year for the Dragon, then we have this issue surface, and now it's looking increasing likely it could be many months before it's corrected, at the camera level, anyway. There's no way I'll be "pushing" the exposure limits to the quoted specs of the Dragon until I know that the camera captures images at the same level as the DEB switch ON in RCX does.

I totally understand...I do agree that the ISO statement seems not to as accurate as we would expect. I hope soon that ll be a thing of the past.

 

[David Battistella]

I just want to be sure I am understanding what people are asking for. We've seen that people can easily deliver a 400 or 800iso image right off dragon to an external recorder with look applied, etc. with zero issues in the monitor or Prores deliverables.

yet people are asking for the fix "in camera" and I'm not getting what that means, like you don't want the extended ability to clean up severely underexposed footage in post? As far as I can tell so far DEB is going to be at its best when you are trying to recover something that is about three or more stops under.

What at I am reading here is that some people feel that RED have not delivered a "fix" because the fix does not happen at the camera processing level but in the post pipeline.

jarred, I think, explained that the reason for this was that it was a better way to solve the problem and that it could trickle down to MX footage as well.

There seems to be a gap here though and it seems to come down to two things, proper exposure where people are having really great results with their camera and underexposure, where people expect the camera to perform the same way with or without lights.

The other thing seems to be a concern that whoever the footage is handed over to will not understand how to use and post RED footage. I don't really get how that is the problem of the camera company. If you were to turn over log Alexa footage that looks noisy because it's in log, people understand that the footage needs to be graded right? But somehow that does not get afforded to red footage?

My my experience has been that properly exposed footage is pretty much noise free and when you hit the sensor with enough light there is a lot of room to push ISO. If you rate at 2000iso and stop down to compensate your images have to be noisier, it's just the moment that physics comes into play.

So, and I truely am curious, what is the major concern or grave fear? So many people are having great success and others feel the camera is inadequate.

battistella

 

[steve green]

I just want to be sure I am understanding what people are asking for. We've seen that people can easily deliver a 400 or 800iso image right off dragon to an external recorder with look applied, etc. with zero issues in the monitor or Prores deliverables.

yet people are asking for the fix "in camera" and I'm not getting what that means, like you don't want the extended ability to clean up severely underexposed footage in post? As far as I can tell so far DEB is going to be at its best when you are trying to recover something that is about three or more stops under.

What at I am reading here is that some people feel that RED have not delivered a "fix" because the fix does not happen at the camera processing level but in the post pipeline.

jarred, I think, explained that the reason for this was that it was a better way to solve the problem and that it could trickle down to MX footage as well.

There seems to be a gap here though and it seems to come down to two things, proper exposure where people are having really great results with their camera and underexposure, where people expect the camera to perform the same way with or without lights.

The other thing seems to be a concern that whoever the footage is handed over to will not understand how to use and post RED footage. I don't really get how that is the problem of the camera company. If you were to turn over log Alexa footage that looks noisy because it's in log, people understand that the footage needs to be graded right? But somehow that does not get afforded to red footage?

My my experience has been that properly exposed footage is pretty much noise free and when you hit the sensor with enough light there is a lot of room to push ISO. If you rate at 2000iso and stop down to compensate your images have to be noisier, it's just the moment that physics comes into play.

So, and I truely am curious, what is the major concern or grave fear? So many people are having great success and others feel the camera is inadequate.

battistella

Inadequate no, not performing up to specs, yes……We all understand the need to expose properly, that's not the issue here, as I see it. Folks are not concerned about severely underexposed footage, that's a problem no matter what camera you're using. The problem being, what seems to be that the image CAPTURED by the new OLPF is arguably a step back from the MX (in some areas) at 800 iso.

Having that extra layer of wondering is the footage going to be dealt with properly, pertaining to the DEB issue, in post, shouldn't be there. Of course with any camera system you can tweak things in post to improve the image. What I think people are concerned about, is with this "fix" as it is now, you need to "tweak" in post just to get back to where you thought you were when you left the set. That's a big wild card that shouldn't be there.

 

[Jan Reiff]

there is actually no fix, because there is no redcine with DEB for the mortal beings ;-)
any news about release ?