DSMC Camera Firmware release 5.1.55 and 5.2.21 beta

[Elsie N]

of course it would be nice to have it IN camera. but i think we should learn especially with RED RAW, that there are some points in the post (not only DEB) that decide about the image - and to give RAW someone who just press the export button will bring not the best results in all image aspects...
i know so many different operators that bring you complete different results out of the same RAW file, so, of course this is a kind of science and talent, and those who knows the camera and its RAW very good will have better images. same again with filmstock since generations. i saw dramatic different qualities at the telecine with the same 35mm negative footage, depending on the operator. skintones, ... dynamic, ... noise, ...

Jan, I think you've just described what sets Dragon (or RED in general) above all the others. RED gives us freedom-of-image-information while the others concentrate on giving you a one-look-fits-all solution.

But those who want to use their cameras like the competitors and have the freedom to do a one-look-fits-all solution of their choosing, still, they went with RED because of that freedom and superiority in resolution and (in the right hands) superiority in image quality (since the Dragon, more especially.)

I guess the reason this is still a hot button issue for some is they want to skip all the fail-safe procedures RED is going through and go directly to putting the fix in camera... without being sure how that will affect something else.

As you and David Battistella have said and I'm pretty sure we all agree, having it in camera IS desirable... if it proves out to BE desirable. But I'm not onboard with putting it in camera if we give up something good we have currently.

So I guess I have an agenda just like the "in-camera-fix" folks do.

What would make me happiest right now would be to have a REDCINE-X release with DEB... even if it hasn't been tweaked to Graeme's satisfaction as perfect. He could achieve perfection in a future release. '-)


EDIT: I just realized I may have excluded a LOT of people who also work to get us REDCINE updates and firmware updates as well. Not being sure how the work is parsed, I'll just say that whomever you are, you know who you are... and THANKS!

 

[Elsie N]

Once again this thread will turn into a lot of people requesting things be tweaked or problems fixed or a certain workflow considered. And then there will be a few members telling everyone else how the problem should be ignored or is insignificant and it is actually people voicing concerns that are wrong in their methods or their thinking.


It is YOU considered at fault if you dont agree with Reds decisions or product features, or you feel a problem should be a high priority. Somehow you are deemed less than professional, perhaps you are a prosumer who stumbled across Red Cameras in error? A rich benefactor bought you a camera? Are you an owner and if not why are you even here? Do you realise the camera is "not a camcorder"? No-one works like you except you. You don't know how to shoot...etc etc. I have heard all these and many more.


Then, down the road, Red will fix the EXACT same problems being discussed. EXCELENT! Well done RED! So those problems turned out to be legitimate? Who`d have guessed that? Not the few people telling everyone "there is no problem to be fixed". Those guys will move on to the next problem and again begin the process of discouraging conversation on that new issue. Rinse and repeat as they say.


All the time the discouragement to conversation is unsurprisingly keeping the conversation going.


Is it possible to stick to addressing problems rather than trying to justify why problems should be allowed to exist?

Bohdan, I think it is legitimate to argue against the knee-jerk reactions to how to fix the problem (by immediately putting it in camera.)

It's not that people are saying there is no problem... they are saying there are ways to get around the problem while waiting for software engineers and camera engineers... professional camera makers, to decide the best way to address the problem.

 

[Jan Reiff]

Just 1h ago David from this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...rlet-Dragon-arrived-noisy-but-otherwise-great!

left our building. he brought his Scarlet - and we compared it 1:1 to my Dragon. There was a very clean image @ ISO 800. on both cams. i would say: the Scarlet was even a bit cleaner and brighter (!) - just a tungsten light as in my tests before, well exposed - but no sensor "damage" as he had some thoughts in his thread. so, next case, Watson.

 

[David Battistella]

Just 1h ago David from this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...rlet-Dragon-arrived-noisy-but-otherwise-great!

left our building. he brought his Scarlet - and we compared it 1:1 to my Dragon. There was a very clean image @ ISO 800. on both cams. i would say: the Scarlet was even a bit cleaner and brighter (!) - just a tungsten light as in my tests before, well exposed - but no sensor "damage" as he had some thoughts in his thread. so, next case, Watson.

great news!


FWIW to all.

im not here to patronize anyone, but I do tend to state known facts as a means to let anyone reading know what is going on. Really, I am on Reduser to try to help people out and more than anything I try to talk about strategies of how to get the most out of the tech as a user of the cameras just like everyone else. (I happen to own one as well)

From my testing and the many frames posted here it's seems that the place where the most problems tend to arise is in underexposure, so I try to stress to people that underexposure starts to drift one towards undesirable results (which tends to be true with any imaging system). It's a way of teaching and sharing.

If red has already stated some things, then sometimes those things are worth repeating for the benefit of people who have not read those comments. I tend to focus on the positive steps either users or RED has taken to solve issues. That is not a way of diminishing anyone's talent or opinion (my opinion does not deserve to be diminished either, right?).

I'm all for open debate, always have been. I've learned a lot here myself.

Battistella

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Red please release the Beta build so all these people will stop complaining. I loved what it did to my existing images that Phil showed me. I'm defending off clients wanting to see their content as long as i can so that i can show them with the new beta so that i don't have deal with them complaining.

That's the problem with letting us know there is a fix, we'll want it ASAP .

Thanks for all your handwork guys, really excited about this fix it really address all my concerns.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Or Phil i might have to just pay you to process all my footage for me

 

[Jan Reiff]

the question is: what IS low light for you ?

is it pushing something that is not there to daylight - like the 7S can do in some ways (with noise too)

or is low light an atmosphere - to create emotion ?

the last is, for me, making a movie. and if you CREATE low light, it´s quite noisefree with every camera, including dragon

see this example

http://we.tl/FRI2UqgWRs

its attached too in small size.

1) is only light of the phone display. it is dark. and it should be dark. if you want to push it - you get noise. fact. if you want to see more. add light. you can´t push this to ISO 4000. not possible. indeed.
2) only a candle and a small lamp left on the table (out of frame) let the viewer see more, still a low light scene, still quiet noisefree.
pushing this to iso2000, to force noise, ... why ?

this is my understanding of creating low light. same with streets in the night. if there is only one light somewhere, the scene is intended to be dark.
why pushing?
in tokyo, you will have noisefree streets at the night. of course (everyone who was in Tokyo knows what i mean)

so i still do not really understand the huge problem to expose in a right way - my problem with "the problem" in this threads is, that the expectations are quite too high. maybe it´s this one statement branded forever: ISO2000 is the new 800 ...

take the 7S - even this low light wonder can´t replace a "painting with light"
you CAN push the first image here just with iphone light to ISO 6400, no problem indeed, and the frame at the right side with the picture may be bright.
but will it look good ? will it have atmosphere? no - it´s the candle - few cents - that make the difference here. the mood. noisefree.

do not understand me wrong - every more sensitive camera helps - but the mood of light, has nothing to do with the pushing of ISO, it´s a creative process.
otherwise all of you are right , dreaming of a 6K camera that captures a moonlight landscape noisefree, sharp ,clean - this camera is not out there at the moment. i do not know it.
if you take the 7S footage with ISO6400 on a huge screen, you will see what i mean.

 

[Eric Haase]

Currently, the magenta line(s)/band(s) is a huge problem on the Dragon. I don't care if "it's a typical CMOS thing" etc
It's not that bad on other CMOS cameras I've shot with (not even close), and it's much, much worse than the MX sensor!
Something's definitely wrong.

Take a small LED light, shoot straight into it and pan the camera around it.
See for yourself.

Can someone from RED please comment and let us know if this magenta line/flare/band issue is acknowledged and if it is being worked on presently? The only feedback I have seen is that this is "common with all CMOS" sensors. Please let us know if there is work being done on this issue, which seems particularly egregious on the Dragon sensor.

 

[Adam Johnson]

It is definitely more noticeable on the Dragon sensor then any other CMOS sensor I have worked with. It gets worse the higher the ISO is cranked up.

 

[Jarred Land]

Red please release the Beta build so all these people will stop complaining. I loved what it did to my existing images that Phil showed me. I'm defending off clients wanting to see their content as long as i can so that i can show them with the new beta so that i don't have deal with them complaining.

That's the problem with letting us know there is a fix, we'll want it ASAP .

Thanks for all your handwork guys, really excited about this fix it really address all my concerns.

Very soon... Graeme has improved things even more the last couple days and is just finishing up testing.

And about the CMOS flair... we can't eliminate that as it is part of the technology... every CMOS sensor does it, some worse, some better. We can just try to correct for it... like others do.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Thanks for the feedback Jarred

Very soon... Graeme has improved things even more the last couple days and is just finishing up testing.

And about the CMOS flair... we can't eliminate that as it is part of the technology... every CMOS sensor does it, some worse, some better. We can just try to correct for it... like others do.

 

[Jarred Land]

Can someone from RED please comment and let us know if this magenta line/flare/band issue is acknowledged and if it is being worked on presently? The only feedback I have seen is that this is "common with all CMOS" sensors. Please let us know if there is work being done on this issue, which seems particularly egregious on the Dragon sensor.

Eric.. you seem to keep pressing and pressing on every single issue that arises.. from one problem onto the next. I love that you are a RED customer.... but we will never be perfect and if that is what you are after there is a certain point if you are not happy with what we are doing you should consider moving on to something else. Our feelings wont be hurt, I promise.

I just want you to be happy.. and if that isn't with us... that is ok.

I have no problem with people complaining about whatever the topic of the week is... we have dealt with that for our entire existence.

We will always listen... and move forward. But the guys that just jump on us over and over again whatever the case may be... life is short.

I heard the word flexibility a few times in this thread and it really is key.

Instead of doing everything kinda-sorta-ok.. it is great to be able to adapt your cameras to do whatever you are doing incredibly.

If its high key high-contrast-high-dynamic range stuff, or if its low light in the dark camera-sees-more-than-I-can stuff or if it is on the shoulder stuff, or studio stuff, or car stuff, or beauty stuff, or helicopter stuff, or drone stuff, or run and gun stuff, or high resolution high frame-rate stuff, The Dragon can be shifted to do it all... more flexible than than any camera can.

For example, this quick change OLPF that we are working on for the Dragon really is long overdue.. and will give people back their low-light , low-noise dragons at the expense of extended highlights.. if that is what they want.

No matter how much we say that one is better than the other, the choice really comes down to you.

The freedom and flexibility to make that kind of decision in different environments should be beneficial to everyone.. even if they only make the choice once and never change it again.

Thank you to everyone that is supportive in this process... I know it can be a bit of a roller coaster sometimes.

 

[dj ditt]

The quick change OLPF seems like the perfect option! I have not updated my Epic yet, but after seeing the threads on old v. new OLPF & the Pros and Cons of both, this makes so much sense. Thanks RED team for working so hard to make it work. Can't wait to hear more...

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Eric.. you seem to keep pressing and pressing on every single issue that arises.. from one problem onto the next. I love that you are a RED customer.... but we will never be perfect and if that is what you are after there is a certain point if you are not happy with what we are doing you should consider moving on to something else. Our feelings wont be hurt, I promise.

I just want you to be happy.. and if that isn't with us... that is ok.

I have no problem with people complaining about whatever the topic of the week is... we have dealt with that for our entire existence.

We will always listen... and move forward. But the guys that just jump on us over and over again whatever the case may be... life is short.

I heard the word flexibility a few times in this thread and it really is key.

Instead of doing everything kinda-sorta-ok.. it is great to be able to adapt your cameras to do whatever you are doing incredibly.

If its high key high-contrast-high-dynamic range stuff, or if its low light in the dark camera-sees-more-than-I-can stuff or if it is on the shoulder stuff, or studio stuff, or car stuff, or beauty stuff, or helicopter stuff, or drone stuff, or run and gun stuff, or high resolution high frame-rate stuff, The Dragon can be shifted to do it all... more flexible than than any camera can.

For example, this quick change OLPF that we are working on for the Dragon really is long overdue.. and will give people back their low-light , low-noise dragons at the expense of extended highlights.. if that is what they want.

No matter how much we say that one is better than the other, the choice really comes down to you.

The freedom and flexibility to make that kind of decision in different environments should be beneficial to everyone.. even if they only make the choice once and never change it again.

Thank you to everyone that is supportive in this process... I know it can be a bit of a roller coaster sometimes.

Thats why we love RED.We are not just customers,We are the RED.feel like im part of the company too.Call me red fan whatever but i believe in Red owners evolving with company.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Thank you to everyone that is supportive in this process... I know it can be a bit of a roller coaster sometimes.

Love how hard you guys work. Keep it up!

Looking forward to the swappable OLPF's. I think they may become a watershed event when released.

 

[Elsie N]

Thats why we love RED.We are not just customers,We are the RED.feel like im part of the company too.Call me red fan whatever but i believe in Red owners evolving with company.

Kemalettin, As a long time RED observer (and customer) I think your post helps explain both the high praise as well as the constant demand for more from RED.

None of the Legacy Camera Companies that I know of allow direct communication with their company's Leadership, key personnel, or have individually assigned liasons (bomb squad reps). Those companies know that if they can keep those people aloof, they can seem way to far removed from the customer to ever have to interact and thus, acknowledge what the customer wants.

RED on the other hand, gives us the feeling that we really are in this together and even though they are way above most of our pay grades in knowledge and experience, they understand that we are users of their products. And that gives many of us the idea we can just say what we want (sometimes, over and over and over... sometimes accusingly) and RED can and will accommodate.

These are professional people. You don't cobble a super-computer imaging machine together in your garage. They can recognize a valid request and if it makes things better, they do try to accommodate.

I like the familiarity we have with the personnel that run and work in this company. For some it is empowering, for others it's just that feeling that we are part of the company.

To me it is remarkable how they have kept the company in that range that has made it a world leader in its field but yet, has remained of a size to interact with its customer base.

Semper RED.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

this quick change OLPF that we are working on for the Dragon really is long overdue.. and will give people back their low-light , low-noise dragons at the expense of extended highlights.. if that is what they want.

YES this is just amazing!!! But will change the OLPF change the calibration with it? Thanks a lot for the support/effort you are very good!!

 

[Elsie N]

YES this is just amazing!!! But will change the OLPF change the calibration with it? Thanks a lot for the support/effort you are very good!!

Good question. Maybe they can do that in a firmware change? I can't think of any other way a user changeable OLPF would work unless they figure out a calibration that is tuned to all OLPFs. Then maybe just a Black Shade would do the job of tuning the sensor to the new OLPF.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

I'm really excited about the quick switch Olpf. It's really going to give everyone the flexibility then need. Well we have to send our cameras in to get the quick switch tech installed or will it be something we can do ourselves, or is it again too early to say?

 

[Jarred Land]

YES this is just amazing!!! But will change the OLPF change the calibration with it? Thanks a lot for the support/effort you are very good!!

You do not need to change the calibration when you switch OLPF... another reason why we are doing D.E.B. and everything in RAW.