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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSLR-killer...

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Great news! I write a column on convergence and this is good news from Red, and a shot across the bow to DSLR manufacturers who are still using a form factor based on roll film. Please send any press releases that I can post at my blog and check out recent pertinent interviews there and at DoubleExposure.com.

Very much look forward to more info about the DSMC!

Steve
 
Tom said:
I think they have basically hinted at the fact that, yes, the Red "DSLR Killer" will be upgradeable.

I agree with you that Canon, Nikon, etc, are disgraceful for building $7,000 DSLRs that cannot be upgraded. People who dropped that kind of money on a 1DsM2 are littered across the internet right now trying to hock their Mark IIs for a couple grand before the new 5D comes out.

Jim has exposed this kind of business practice for what it is.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but Jim is killing more then just the DSLR. He's killing that kind of overpriced, gouging, planned obsolecence mentality. He cuts to the chase and cuts the crap. Just make the best possible and sell it at a fantastic price. Everyone will flock to you.

If the same "paradigm" of what he did with Red One he does with the DSMC, then the $7k high-end, professional quality camera becomes a mere $1k-ish. Which would be astounding because everyone will know that if Canon, Nikon, Sony had the same camera, they'd sell it for $15k+.

Jim will corner the market.
 
I wonder as the big boys watch in frustration and envy at Jim & Red Co.'s success, if they'll equate it to the product or his business model and philosophy? And if they actually do see the light, how will they respond to his business model and philosophy? Can you imagine them actually having to listen to customers and doing something about it... quickly? Or selling their high-end quality stuff at consumer prices?

Anyway, enough business talk for me. Me saying all this is like telling Einstein "E=MC2" or giving Tiger Woods golfing advice (I don't play golf).
 
Jason Ing said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but Jim is killing more then just the DSLR. He's killing that kind of overpriced, gouging, planned obsolecence mentality. He cuts to the chase and cuts the crap. Just make the best possible and sell it at a fantastic price. Everyone will flock to you.

If the same "paradigm" of what he did with Red One he does with the DSMC, then the $7k high-end, professional quality camera becomes a mere $1k-ish. Which would be astounding because everyone will know that if Canon, Nikon, Sony had the same camera, they'd sell it for $15k+.

Jim will corner the market.
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Well don't count on $1,000... we have no idea what this camera is going to be capable of or worth.
 
Darn. :)

But why'd you say that Tom? Now Jim will know what it's really worth and start getting ideas.

Seriously, although my numbers ratio comparison might be off, I am curious what the price will be considering the amazing "what you get for your money" in the case of Red One.
 
lecter said:
It's been said many times that RED represents the beginning of the end, as we know it of a sports shooter. If you can do 100fps and get a 24MP still image of some quality, then why would you need a Nikon or Canon?

Nikon and Canon coming up with HD recordigns on DSLR's is quaint, but not a selling point for me. I am into the quality of the image. Video, to date, and it's still images have never blown me away until I started seeing the RED footage. It's still not there (IMHO) but it's closer than ever.

RED needs to get the scarlet out in commercial volumes as a testeer to its ability to produce something that will have real demand. This is a truly interesting device and more than a few of my colleagues are gagging at the bit until it's introduced.

Stock options? No way, I agree. Jim and Co need to be free to develop and innovate. If it's $$ they need, make sure it's only 48% they hand over to investors, and even this would change the way they operate.

Bring it on..... You have my vote and $$.

Rob
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As a working still photographer, I think there are many differences in how I shoot stills vs. how I shoot motion. In some cases maybe you can grab stills from the motion footage and get great results, but there are also many cases where shutter speed is very important to the look of the image. Those exposure times that create the "look" for the still shot would probably cause problems with any motion footage shots. A still image is very unforgiving compared with a frame of 24fps footage.

I think a dual purpose camera can work, but not always capturing motion and stills together at the same time.

And wide angle lenses for full frame 24MP sensors are very difficult to make well. My pick would be a Zeiss ZF (Nikon) mount. Of course with a Canon mount, you could use almost any lens.

The Nikon D3 and Canon 1Ds Mk3 are great cameras.

Looking forward to see what you come up with Jim!
 
if redcode is the base format for the stills than photoshop will already have support via the plugin. maybe it'll require a few tweaks. but it'll be there already a good year before the DSMC ships.
 
Tom said:
I think they have basically hinted at the fact that, yes, the Red "DSLR Killer" will be upgradeable.

I agree with you that Canon, Nikon, etc, are disgraceful for building $7,000 DSLRs that cannot be upgraded. People who dropped that kind of money on a 1DsM2 are littered across the internet right now trying to hock their Mark IIs for a couple grand before the new 5D comes out.

Jim has exposed this kind of business practice for what it is.
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Tom

I usually agree with you but in this case I think you are a bit over the top. The last generation of 35mm Pro film camera bodies were close to $3000. A digital version with truly state of the art sensors and computing power for $5000 is not that out of line. Maybe the Canon for $8000 is a bit steep but it's still not a big deal for a working pro that needs gear at that level of build quality.

I think comparing an XSI to an top of the line Canon 1D or 1Ds, or Nikon D3 is like comparing an HVX200 to an Arri 435. If you have used them both as I have on a daily basis, I am sure you would agree.

I do agree however that a future RED camera without all the hardware from the old film camera models, may be a great step forward for us all. An electronic viewfinder with a fantastic sensor a generation ahead of Canon or Nikon or (now) Sony, would be right up RED's alley... and a very welcome piece of gear!

Like I always say, these are exciting times...
 
Jim,

I don't want to rain on your parade. You're a great businessman, and an inspiration for us all.

But, what it comes down is basically price (all those 4000+ happy customers that you currently have would not be here if you sold the Red One for half a million dollars).

I guess the sensor in the Red One costs 10'000$ to make. Well, frankly, the D90 has put you in a position caught with your pants down, because a very similar sensor can obviously be made for a tenth of the price.

And that's where the market is moving. We all know Moore's law.

So when you are saying "If people are not stunned by the specs and design, I will retire", well here's what we truly want to be stunned by: the price.

In 12-18 months, it will be quite likely that one can build a camera similar to the Red One (35mm 4K, 30-120fps, 11 stops, exchangeable lenses) for about 3000$. Yes this statement hurts to say (hurts you, hurts all the current buyers).

My public question to you would then be: Jim, are you going to create this camera, or will you let somebody else overtake you in this race?
 
Purple said:
Well, frankly, the D90 has put you in a position caught with your pants down, because a very similar sensor can obviously be made for a tenth of the price.
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If you mean the Nikon D90, then...

...Frankly, you have no idea what you're talking about.

D90? Similar sensor? Pants down?

It says here (http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Digital-SLR/25446/D90.html) that the D90's format is "Motion jpg".

You do know the difference between jpg and RAW, don't you?

lol.
 
jtm said:
Unfortunately, the world is full of pillocks with Uninformed Strong Opinions. Natural selection should diminish their numbers in a few hundred years.
Here's hoping.
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Not so sure about that. Seen Mike Judge's Idiocracy? :)
 
Wow. Purple. I rarely post, but that statement isn't that informed. You have to get hands-on with the D90 to know why it and the RED are virtually impossible to compare. When it comes to D-Movie, the only real significance I see it holding is that Nikon (and people are claiming Canon too, which is unconfirmed) has reacted to RED. But between the weird exposures and the odd shutter and the wobbling...

the D90 video mode is an 'alpha run' and all the issues, starting with motion JPG and overheating don't simply fix themselves over time because of Moore's Law...it doesn't work that way.
 
Jason Ing said:
It says here (http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Digital-SLR/25446/D90.html) that the D90's format is "Motion jpg".

You do know the difference between jpg and RAW, don't you?

lol.
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I'm not here to offend anyone (not sure about you).
I'm comparing sensors. Both cams have a ~4K ~35mm sensor. Red One outputs all those pixels up to 60 times per second, the Nikon one outputs all those pixels up to 24 times per second.

"Motion jpg" is about the output pipeline, which is different in both systems (which is why my predicted camera is more expensive then the Nikon). You do realize those differences, right?

Since the sensor is the most expensive part of the system, a difference of 17.5k$ vs. 1k$ for a very similar package makes me very attentive, and should you too.

Cheers.
 
Purple said:
Red One outputs all those pixels up to 60 times per second, the Nikon one outputs all those pixels up to 24 times per second.
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One of the photo websites explained that it's only sampling 720 lines out of the 2848 which is why it aliases really badly. I think that means it's really 6fps if it were to do the full sensor. The specs for full sensor recording is 4.5 fps. Maybe they squeeze more fps in 720 mode because it's not pushing as much data through.
 
Kyle_Doris said:
Wow. Purple. I rarely post, but that statement isn't that informed. You have to get hands-on with the D90 to know why it and the RED are virtually impossible to compare. When it comes to D-Movie, the only real significance I see it holding is that Nikon (and people are claiming Canon too, which is unconfirmed) has reacted to RED. But between the weird exposures and the odd shutter and the wobbling...

the D90 video mode is an 'alpha run' and all the issues, starting with motion JPG and overheating don't simply fix themselves over time because of Moore's Law...it doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...

Well there are clearly open issues. "Exposures" might be a bug, "wobbling" might need a new sensor, I'm not a sensor engineer. Overheating might be a problem, but solving an overheating problem will not add 5000$ to a cam as long as you can bear some added weight for fans etc.

But it's clear that progress is going forward at a very rapid pace. There will be something competing with the Red One in 2008/2009 for a price well below 10k$. It amazes me that nobody can see that trajectory in a forum where people are holding the very embodiment of this trajectory in their own hands.

Cheers.
 
Ariana said:
One of the photo websites explained that it's only sampling 720 lines out of the 2848 which is why it aliases really badly. I think that means it's really 6fps if it were to do the full sensor. The specs for full sensor recording is 4.5 fps. Maybe they squeeze more fps in 720 mode because it's not pushing as much data through.
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Interesting. Have you got a link for that aliasing/720 statement? Thanks.

I believe to remember somebody from Red mentioned here once that the Red One sensor cannot be read out in such a fashion (when people asked for a 120fps mode with 35mm depth of field), and that this is a limit with most CMOS sensors.

Since the D90 has a CMOS sensor, too, I'm using this as an element of my case.
 
Purple said:
I'm not here to offend anyone (not sure about you).
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So you don't think telling Jim that he got caught with his pants down isn't offensive?

I'm sure you meant to be as funny, tongue in cheek, and teasing in tone as my post.

Cheers. ;)
 
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