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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSLR-killer...

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Lee Jay said:
Why isn't it the other way around? I'm pretty happy with the 640x480 video that comes from my wife's compact digital camera. I'd be absolutely thrilled with the 1080p that comes from the 5DII - possibly even more than the video that comes from a Red 35FF because its already finished, compressed and ready to go instead of occupying gig after gig in Redcode I'd probably never get around to dealing with. There are probably lots of still photographers out there like me that would only shoot a few minutes of video (or "motion") a year and really don't care much at all about the quality compared to the quality of our stills.
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Lee if you really don't care about motion quality, then I think it's pretty obvious that a RED camera is not for you.
 
For some reason there seems to be people here that think a "DSLR killer" means beating a DSLR only at stills. That is not the case. A "DSLR-killer" means offering an equal to stills quality while offering a superior motion capture capability at the same time... for a price.

Jim
 
Ok, fair enough, I guess I was being un-realistic in hoping for a do-it-all cam that I could afford (Not being a cine pro).
Granted the FF35 Scarlet / Epic are do-it-all cams, just not at my price point.
I'll hold on to my 5D for stills, and look at one of the 2/3" Scarlets, which should be plenty for my (Admitedly modest) cine needs.
Cheers,
David
 
You know, I think this is a really important point. For those shooting with a 5D (Or equivalent) and doing no video work, RED is not providing a cheaper better replacement. For those who want an awesome video camera at a great price then RED is it. The grey area is for those who want to mix stills and video - for those doing mostly video and want excellent stills then question is answered. The people doing mostly stills need to question whether RED is for them - there are a lot of people it will suit really well (Sports, those moving into video/film), but a good number it just won't.

For me it means I'll probably stretch to a slighter better video camera than normal, because it means I can also do stills and keep all the same accessories and lenses - thus saving on the stills stuff. And the workflow will be similar too!
 
Jannard said:
For some reason there seems to be people here that think a "DSLR killer" means beating a DSLR only at stills. That is not the case. A "DSLR-killer" means offering an equal to stills quality while offering a superior motion capture capability at the same time... for a price.

Jim
Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

If you can beat the high ISO performance of stills camera such as the D300/D700 I will be impressed.

Best,

Stephen
 
Jannard said:
For some reason there seems to be people here that think a "DSLR killer" means beating a DSLR only at stills. That is not the case. A "DSLR-killer" means offering an equal to stills quality while offering a superior motion capture capability at the same time... for a price.

Jim
Click to expand...

See, I thought "dSLR killer" meant a device that would "kill the dSLR" meaning rendering it absent from the market, replaced by the new device which has (arguably) superior performance and features in all areas. The DVD is a VHS killer. The CD is an LP killer. The MP3 is a cassette killer. The jet engine is a piston engine killer for commercial aircraft.

What you've announced is a "killer motion camera system", not a "dSLR killer".
 
Lee Jay said:
See, I thought "dSLR killer" meant a device that would "kill the dSLR" meaning rendering it absent from the market, replaced by the new device which has (arguably) superior performance and features in all areas. The DVD is a VHS killer. The CD is an LP killer. The MP3 is a cassette killer. The jet engine is a piston engine killer for commercial aircraft.

What you've announced is a "killer motion camera system", not a "dSLR killer".
Click to expand...

Since I explained to you early on exactly what it meant, and you seem to ignore the explanation... insisting on your definition, I'll continue to disagree strongly with you. All of your examples show doing the same thing only better. We are doing the same thing (shoot stills) equally as well, and something a DSLR cannot do (shoot real motion fit for real projects). Your examples do not make good analogies.

Rather than continue to talk past each other, why don't we take this offline?

Jim
 
I think the most important aspect in making a killing is the pricepoint. The listed products clock in at either the same pricepoint or under it by providing something better or easier to use.

It's easier to find a killer in Napoli than in New York after all. :)
 
Jannard said:
Rather than continue to talk past each other, why don't we take this offline?

Jim
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LOL...The man drives a truck that looks like a tank. If I was going to talk trash to him via the internet I would make damn sure that a. I was at my friends house (so he would come to his house and not mine :tongue:) and b. That I was 110% sure I was correct.
 
Lee Jay said:
See, I thought "dSLR killer" meant a device that would "kill the dSLR" meaning rendering it absent from the market, replaced by the new device which has (arguably) superior performance and features in all areas. The DVD is a VHS killer. The CD is an LP killer. The MP3 is a cassette killer. The jet engine is a piston engine killer for commercial aircraft.
Click to expand...

Me too. And Jim even said "It marks the end of DSLRs" and personally challenged the claim of a guy who said "Canon and Sony and Nikon have that market cornered. Nobody is going to dislodge them." I don't see how this kills the DSLR market, marks the end of DSLRs or dislodges Canon, Sony and Nikon from their position selling DSLRs. It doesn't seem to do any of those things. It's in a different market from DSLRs and appeals to a different user.

What you've announced is a "killer motion camera system", not a "dSLR killer".
Click to expand...

I completely agree and I still want one even though it's out of my pricerange for the sensor size I want.
 
TallGuy said:
Me too. And Jim even said "It marks the end of DSLRs" and personally challenged the claim of a guy who said "Canon and Sony and Nikon have that market cornered. Nobody is going to dislodge them." I don't see how this kills the DSLR market, marks the end of DSLRs or dislodges Canon, Sony and Nikon from their position selling DSLRs. It doesn't seem to do any of those things. It's in a different market from DSLRs and appeals to a different user.



I completely agree and I still want one even though it's out of my pricerange for the sensor size I want.
Click to expand...

Tall and LeeJay...

Canon, Nikon and Sony are also marking the end of the DSLR as we "knew it"... it appears. The whole point, which seems to keep being missed, is that the end of the DSLR (still only camera) is near. Our DSLR-killer is a concept of stills and motion from the same professional camera... now shared by others. Given that definition, RED has a clear lead (at least with specs) over the others given a true pro motion capture. Price was not listed as criteria. Performance is. Consumers are most worried about price. Professionals are most concerned about performance.

If you both want to change the definition and then talk about your point of view relative to that... go right ahead. But please don't quote my comments in the context of your definition and not mine. You are starting to wear me out.

Jim
 
Let's think about this a different way...

Let's think about this a different way...

I really don't think that the recently announced Scarlet and Epic lineups will kill the DSLR but this new way of telling stories with both stills and motion will. The recent piece of kids playing video games on the NY Times website (http://gizmodo.com/5096852/video-game-o-faces-captured-with-red-camera) is a very exciting use of both means of image capture. Many journalists and fashion photographers are jumping up and down at the prospect of being able to shoot both at the same time. I think we really have to come at this a different way. We shouldn't try to fit the DSMC system into our old way of thinking. An approach where stills and motion are mutually exclusive. If we keep trying to make it fit into our concept of what a stills or motion camera is, we'll never get anywhere, because it is neither one of them.

If I look at the Scarlet FF35 as a stills-ONLY camera it would not be competitive with todays' DSLRs. But what if I like shooting both? I can buy a Canon 1Ds MK III ($7,000) with 22 MP for my stills work and a Red One ($18,000+) for my motion projects. OR I can get some of both by buying a Scarlet FF35 for $7,000 plus a few accessories. I know the form factor of the DSMC system isn't for everyone but nobody is forcing us to get a RED!

It's an exciting time that we live in. This is just the beginning of a new art form which isn't stills or motion.

That's just my 2¢

- Jan
 
yes a exciting time but we need it in 3d not in 2d.

i hope that red will take care about it as 3d is the future and may red will take care
about some new ideas that i post already in the 3d forum.

btw i just order for my 3d rick(45° half half mirror) 2 new canon 5d mk2.
i have the old 5d and its may a stepp up and i can still use my 3d rick.

it will be a nice compare as i also have the sony ex1 to see how good the canon
5d mk2 will be against the sony ex1.

i hope i can upgrade to the epic or scarlet asap but i hope if there is no
3d system that have only 1 chip there will be no problem to use 2 red cameras
in a 3d system without having sync problems.
the guy that produce my 3d rick have some sync problems with 2 red one in a 3d set up.

rico
 
rico said:
yes a exciting time but we need it in 3d not in 2d.
Click to expand...

I think you might have missed this Rico...

3D.jpg
 
The whole notion of the DSLR is a total convention inherited from the world of 35mm film. In that world there were/are practical limitations to combining still and motion equipment (film is bulky). In the Digital world, where all the cameras share the elements of sensors, DSP, and storage there is NO reason they should be separate.

Anyways, the point to me is the kinds of work that can be produced by unifying the two. There are "real" examples of Still/Motion work together. Look at Chris Marker's La Jette (later the inspiration for 12 Monkeys). This is really one of the great 'indie/art' films made. What is Unique is this: It is all still images BUT it was shot on a motion camera. And, it includes a shot that merges still and motion. (I believe it was a 16mm bolex used).

That is right nay-sayers', there are already examples of still/motion work coming from the same camera. The 'art' world is full of them as experimentations. The Commercial world is full of them too: 400 Blows, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ... As well as general marketing and mixed media work: "stills" from films for advertising and books that go with larger releases. The only issue with making the mix of motion a regular part of the visual language was the fact that equipment that was easily usable was not there. (esp in the digital world)

RED is turning those tables around. When photography first evolved this hard notion of separateness never existed and the boundaries were more fluid. The walls and fences grew up due to the restrictions of technology NOT the desires of artists. It's awesome that some new tools are being created to enable those desires and ideas be explored.
 
Jannard said:
Tall and LeeJay...

Canon, Nikon and Sony are also marking the end of the DSLR as we "knew it"... it appears. The whole point, which seems to keep being missed, is that the end of the DSLR (still only camera) is near. Our DSLR-killer is a concept of stills and motion from the same professional camera... now shared by others. Given that definition, RED has a clear lead (at least with specs) over the others given a true pro motion capture. Price was not listed as criteria. Performance is. Consumers are most worried about price. Professionals are most concerned about performance.

If you both want to change the definition and then talk about your point of view relative to that... go right ahead. But please don't quote my comments in the context of your definition and not mine. You are starting to wear me out.

Jim
Click to expand...

Makex said:
The whole notion of the DSLR is a total convention inherited from the world of 35mm film. In that world there were/are practical limitations to combining still and motion equipment (film is bulky). In the Digital world, where all the cameras share the elements of sensors, DSP, and storage there is NO reason they should be separate.

Anyways, the point to me is the kinds of work that can be produced by unifying the two. There are "real" examples of Still/Motion work together. Look at Chris Marker's La Jette (later the inspiration for 12 Monkeys). This is really one of the great 'indie/art' films made. What is Unique is this: It is all still images BUT it was shot on a motion camera. And, it includes a shot that merges still and motion. (I believe it was a 16mm bolex used).

That is right nay-sayers', there are already examples of still/motion work coming from the same camera. The 'art' world is full of them as experimentations. The Commercial world is full of them too: 400 Blows, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ... As well as general marketing and mixed media work: "stills" from films for advertising and books that go with larger releases. The only issue with making the mix of motion a regular part of the visual language was the fact that equipment that was easily usable was not there. (esp in the digital world)

RED is turning those tables around. When photography first evolved this hard notion of separateness never existed and the boundaries were more fluid. The walls and fences grew up due to the restrictions of technology NOT the desires of artists. It's awesome that some new tools are being created to enable those desires and ideas be explored.
Click to expand...

I think most of us don't realize how the "Big" camera companies trickle down technology and user interface advancements.

Take for the example, the "video" and "Live View" issue.

The "consumer" still cameras have had these for at least 4 years. When asked why the bigger digital still cameras did not have these facilities, when the companies bothered to answer, the story was these were consumer features. Professionals would not be interested in this as they preferred to have particular tools for particular work. Fair enough (for the companies' business of course).

Problem: What if one started consumer and had to loose features they grew up with to become professional? Do these features make or not make the professional?

I remember on guy in a Creative Cow magazine who hooked up his MacBook Pro to his 1DMkIII and made the camera "dump" frames onto the computer at 24 frames a second. He was able to make some beautiful night footage of, I think, the Bay in San Francisco. But it was not practical.

So the wisdom went that since you are going "professional", you are now entering the "true" photography, Single Lenses Reflex. Digital in DSLR simply means they replaced the film with a digital sensor. But the advantages of the digital sensor were not being used. Until Now.

With these digital still cameras, the sensor is receiving information all the time. Now one does not need the "viewfinder blackout", that is a SLR feature coming from the film days, to get the picture. One of the bottlenecks was the read-out speed of the sensor technology. Now that bridge has been passed. It can be done at X frames per second where X>24. All you adjust is the shutter speed(angle). Theoretically all you need to know is how long you want the exposure to be within a frame time, i.e is the exposure the entire time (1/24 sec)? Is it in half the time (at 1/48 sec) though the frame rate is 24, and so on.

As Jim put it, the read-out speed on RED technology has reached film speed. That means you can Burst" in Still photography terms, up to 24 frames a second. Canon 1MkIII does 10 frames per sec and this is 30 continuous frames of RAW max. Once you add that RED is until you stop and the 1DMkIII is for 3 seconds you get the picture.

So let's agree on some issues.

First, DSLR is dying as a camera concept. The future belongs to a broad definition called DigiCams, which is currently taken to mean "consumer" video or still cameras.

Now we have a definition for picture professionals, DSMC.

NOTE AGAIN: DSMC is not aimed at the professional Still photography market (also known as DSLR). It is aimed IMO at the (previously) "Film" professional who is in motion pictures first and stills second.

Add to this the professional Still photographer who always wanted to go into motion picture but couldn't stand the compromises of video. Add the professional video cam guy who can now shoot like film with the advantages of a digital workflow, like video. Then there is the RED guy who owns a big "DSLR".

In the RED Modular system, these professionals, where the cost is secondary, are taken care of.

The rest of use who want bleeding "RED" edge technology but can't afford it (since we are not "professionals" ;-) ), we have Scarlet. We even have Scarlet FF35!!

Honestly we should thank Jim profusely. We know he is way ahead. And so will we.
 
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