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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSLR-killer...

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Fran, you are exactly right.

If you go over to the Canon forums you will see lots of photographers who have great skill shooting stills but no idea about how all this video stuff works. They are making assumptions that are just not realistic.

If you are shooting a wedding you can't jump back and forth because the bride and groom are going to want stills AND video of that special moment, not one of the other. You'll just end up missing the "moment".

My main point which I obviously did a horrible job of describing was that Epic and Scarlet seem like they will be major contenders in the cinema world and no doubt light a fire under the other big boys. That is good for us all. I'm just not sure Red should get distracted with trying to make it a DSLR. To actually describe or associate these new wonders from Red with the term "DSLR" actually cheapens them in my opinion. Let Canon and Nikon shoot it out for the still market.

There is no doubt that Canon putting out 30fps 1080P from a FF sensor was yellow flag to Red as a company. It may not be the only reason for the new direction but it was surely part of it. This says something.

To me S35 and FF35 is what really sets these apart from EVERYTHING and I hope Red concentrates on that and can get that as affordable as possible. I'll buy one for cinema and use my 5D for shooting stills.

No personal attacks needed :)
 
Jason Ing said:
You're right. There's a diverse group here. But what's great is the sharing and cross-over of knowledge, I think. :)

Nice shots on your site, by the way.
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Thanks, Jason. BTW I've noticed the REDuser site getting better lately, more guys like David Mullen, Mitch Gross, Stephen Williams, the great guys at Duclos--some real pros stopping in more and more.

I've been lurking here since they first opened the place, but, to be honest, I was hesitant to post for a while with all the boot licking, back slapping and high-five-ing. Every time I stuck my head in here it was sort of like that creepy feeling you get walking into Abercrombie & Fitch to buy a pair of jeans, know what I mean?

A lot better these days! I'm trying to absorb all of the good info--I still have a lot to learn, that's for sure.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com
 
Cool. :)

But what if it could shoot a great still shot already? Maybe add a little bit more technology and then all that's needed is the right "body"?

Then design it so that you can just pop on the traditional still handles with a shutter button.

I'm curious how this "body" will feel if you want to do just traditional SLR work and not video. It sort of looked "bulky" in the pictures. But I'm reserving judgment for NAB 2009! A mock up will be there, right? :)
 
And, of course, there's the price point vs features between the SLRs and Scarlett. That should be interesting. Some threads are already hashing on this one.
 
Fran Kuhn said:
Hi Jason,

You're right. It's just that many people here think they'll be able to shoot for both stills and motion at the same time. Sure, it can sometimes be done, but it's not something I'd like to rely on for any important shoot.

My first post on REDuser was a reply to some guy here who was rejoicing at the thought of selling his Arriflex SR3 and Nikon and having one do-it-all camera, that from now on everything--stills and motion--could be shot in one take. And a wedding photographer who thought he'd be able to ditch his partner with the video camera because he'd simply pull all of the stills from his Scarlet video.

To me this illustrates the level of misunderstanding about some very basic aspects of photography and cinematography by many of the posters on this board. Not to mention misunderstanding the business in general.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com
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maybe you are interested to teach your very basic aspects of photography and cinematography to many others such as those guys from wedding photography or any other else?.. :whistling:
 
Quick, opinionated breakdown of the best cameras for paid photo gigs:

Wildlife: Red FF35 (much higher frame rates than Nikon or Canon)
Stationary sports (monopod, one location, etc): Red FF35 (ditto)
Sports (carrying multiple cameras): Nikon D3 or Canon 1D (fast fps, lower weight, great AF)
Standard Landscape: Canon 1Ds (huge megapixels for the price)
Premium Landscape: Red 617 (wide format, max mp)
Paparazzi/event/wedding: Nikon D3/D700 (clean high iso, low weight, flash hotshoe, great AF)
Standard Studio/portrait: Canon 1Ds (max mp for the price)
Premium Studio/portrait: Red 645 (high mp, fastest medium format, modular, dof)
Flexible location flash: Nikon D3 (amazing integrated wireless flash system)

-This assumes the Red brain/grip will have excellent AF control with Nikon/Canon/Red lenses.

Canon and Nikon are, I think, still the top choices for the majority of event and sports photogs who require familiar ergonomic bodies, big 3" screens, sensor cleaning, hotshoes and lighter weight. It's the medium format guys (Hassy, Mamiya, Phase One, etc.) who should be very, very worried.
 
FullRez said:
Fran, you are exactly right.


. . .My main point which I obviously did a horrible job of describing was that Epic and Scarlet seem like they will be major contenders in the cinema world and no doubt light a fire under the other big boys. That is good for us all. I'm just not sure Red should get distracted with trying to make it a DSLR. To actually describe or associate these new wonders from Red with the term "DSLR" actually cheapens them in my opinion. Let Canon and Nikon shoot it out for the still market.
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Hi FullRez,

I have to admit I was a little let down when I saw what was announced here today, at least in regard to the DSLR killer. (The other stuff was really pretty exciting.)

I did a little impromptu email survey of some pro sports photographer friends this morning, emailed them the link to the new systems. To be honest, they were not remotely interested. Just too expensive and they are worried about customer support if and when the company starts building many more thousands of units. And then, as any user of anything digital will tell you, this only means something bigger, better and cheaper will be coming from Canon or Nikon sometime soon.

BTW if this Scarlet has an auto focus that can accurately track a motorcycle moving at 70mph towards the camera, I might be in! (Are you listening Canon--1D MKIII-ahem!):sarcasm:

Anyway, nice to meet you FullRez.

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com
 
FMG battery said:
maybe you are interested to teach your very basic aspects of photography and cinematography to many others such as those guys from wedding photography or any other else?.. :whistling:
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Hi FMG,

Sure thing. Why don't we start by analyzing your best shot. Post it here and I'll see what we can do to make it better!:biggrin:

All The Best,

-Fran

http://www.frankuhn.com
 
If there's one thing that I've learned from this company, and Jim himself, is that when he says something, it's better to trust them/him, instead of jump to the worst possible scenario conclusions.

While Red mostly has a community here of filmmakers (vs still photographers), Red being a digital cinema camera, since Jim announced the DSLR-Killer I've seen more still photographers pop up. Everyone has to remember that Jim is a photographer. He knows what's needed to make a photo. He knows photography (and all the technical stuff behind it).

Obviously, there is a large price difference between the Red's cameras and still cameras. That seems to be the real concern, from everything that we know. But Red knew the prices of the Canon's and Nikon's (Jim probably owns some of them), so they knew this wasn't an apples to apples comparison. They aren't selling still cameras with motion capability (like canon and nikon), they are making digital cinema cameras with still capability. Because of that, what I assume was meant was that if you have one of these cameras you wouldn't need a DSLR, not that you won't need to buy a DSLR if you don't have anything. In that sense it will be a huge relief to only carry around one camera instead of two (one for motion (good, professional motion) and one for stills), if someone's role required both.

So, I'd just sit back and trust Jim and Company that they know what they're talking about. Trust? Yeah, trust.

If you're sincerely disappointed, those other still cameras (with some motion capabilities) still exist. For now. :biggrin:
 
This is great Jim, that you have finally decided to go with FF35 and 645. I'm in for the EPIC FF35 and 645. When are they available for order?
 
• 1080p resolution
• 24p framerate
• Full size 35 sensor
• Uses affordable SLR lenses
• RAW recording/workflow
• <$4000
 
Uncompressed RAW

Uncompressed RAW

Do Scarlet and Epic shoot UNCOMPRESSED RAW still images? What about having the option of shooting uncompressed or lossless RAW motion? SSDs are developing fast and soon we'll have 1,6Tb SSDs with transfer rates about 300MB/s, which should be enough to shoot at least some minutes of 2k uncompressed footage (correct me if I'm wrong)
 
I think the Scarlet and the Epic are indeed DSLR killers. This is because I am assuming that the Red cameras will come with a super burst mode that can record 100 pictures in a second and will start recording pictures before the shutter is fully depressed. This means you always get the perfect shot which is impossible with a conventional DSLR which only takes 3 photos a second. With the super burst mode the shutter speed is optimized for still photography only so you do not get the motion blurring as you do with a typical frame grab off of movie footage.
 
I think the Scarlet and the Epic are indeed DSLR killers. This is because I am assuming that the Red cameras will come with a super burst mode that can record 100 pictures in a second and will start recording pictures before the shutter is fully depressed. This means you always get the perfect shot which is impossible with a conventional DSLR which only takes 3 photos a second. With the super burst mode the shutter speed is optimized for still photography only so you do not get the motion blurring as you do with a typical frame grab off of movie footage.
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First off: Still photography isn't about that (it could be nice for sports though)
Secondly: How much "pleasure" and time will it need to select the best shot?
 
I don't think any scarlet s a DSLR killer....yet.
To do this a camera would have to be priced within shouting distance of the 5D / D700 / A900, rather than in excess of the 1Ds / D3.
The elements are all, there, interchangeable mounts, 24Mp FF35, 13+ stops DR, but $12000 body only, without VF or grips? No.
However, strip out the expesive cine bits, get volumes up and a price of say$4000 or less and I think then Canon or Nikon should be worried.
As things stand only Haselblad and Phase one shoud worry, and that's over the 645 Epic
David
 
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