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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon....

Elsie N said:
Alex, the question is, what was the result of Admiral Nagumo receiving the coded message, climb Mount Niitaka?

'-)
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More recently, a bad film by Michael Bay...
 
Eryc Tramonn said:
Thanks, Glen. Just getting to Mark's section of the interview now. Mark called in from the field (sounds as though he is on his mobile in a vehicle) to conduct the interview. I decided to take notes to inform others who may not be able to listen. The gist of the interview is below, and all sounds good:

- A still button confirmed, though he has not tested it yet.
- When looking at the LCD, the contrast in the scene appears to be WYSIWYG. Basically matches what we see with our eyes.
- Claims to see more DR available in the viewfinder alone. With Mark's grading tests, they discovered more DR overall.
- The camera has not exhibited any glitches. "To be honest it has been more stable than the current EPIC." Feels ready for production.
- The UI is easier; though not too dissimilar from an interface standpoint.
- Shooting 6K 2:1
- Shooting 6K WS 2.35
- The difference is really dramatic going from 5K to 6K. "Massive"
- 1.18 Crop factor feels very much like 35mm. 600mil went up and felt like a 600mil.
- It feels a tad HDR, but not extreme. You can see all the information in the shadows, but also in the highlights.
- Capturing off-speed.
- Using his standard cards. Joked and said he was using a special, super turbo card.
- PL was on, but came off. 6K is so much wider he wanted to use the best part of the circle. Instead he opted to use Canon glass because he knows he'll get full coverage.
- Heading to do some contrast testing in the rainforest.
- Commented on the evolution of the camera. "It's the camera I've always wanted now. It's the camera for me. It's given me the image quality I've wanted. To be honest, Jim has just given me another four years."
- Feels the upgrade cost is completely justifiable. Doesn't feel ripped off. Private users are going to want it; rental houses will have to have it.
- Camera has the "feel and smoothness" of the monochrome in daylight. But they are going to test it to see how it performs at night in relation to the monochrome.
- Power requirements are similar to EPIC MX, but seem a tad more efficient.
- "It's the real deal, so far."
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Hey all, in anticipation of Toia's analysis, I'd like to start to add my impressions into the mix... Now, I am trying to get down to Red Studios to analyze my footage in RCX, but I've been bogged down with work. I will say that I did notice a new behavior to the color science of the dragon as opposed to the history of the Mysterium and Mysterium-X...

I'll explain what I experienced.

With the original color science of Raw vs. Red Color/Gamma... when you toggled between Raw and RC, you could track what differences in ISO did to your historam and waveform. At 640 ISO, you could watch the waveform drop when you toggled to Raw... When you progressively dropped the ISO settings, you could see the Raw output difference also decrease. To the point when you set ISO at 320, you would not see a difference in output exposure on the waveform when toggling between RedColor and Raw. The only difference would be in the color LUT that was applied to the RC output versus Raw. That for me pointed to a "native" point of sensitivity of the Mysterium X sensor.

Any increase in ISO setting was an application of gain to the raw signal to "illustrate" what raising the raw picture's gain in post would look like. When you raised it up to 800 ISO, this was the threshold where the first hints of noise would appear. This is why I always preferred to work at 500/640 unless I was desperate. The way the Dragon behaves seems to be different. Perhaps Graeme can chime in here, but what I experienced as I was tinkering in the few moments I had on my shoot was not the same. The way the Dragon applies RedColor and also displays the Raw signal appears to be different. I tried upping and lowering the ISO to ascertain a "base ISO"... but I couldn't pin-point any situation where the Raw and Redcolor output coincided. Even down to 200 ISO!

Now this may be a function of the new approach to its image and dynamic range handling. And that's probably what I was seeing. I had to move on and didn't have time to ponder it, nor ask Jarred to elaborate on set. What I did see was I didn't experience any demonstrable noise at the ISOs I was working at. I was interested in utilizing 2000 ISO, but I just had too damn much exposure and didn't want to stop down the lens... I preferred to be more wide open. Also, my engrained working style with Red has been programmed into my DNA to seek a lower ISO for a cleaner signal, as long as I had a goodly "thick" neg to work with.

Once I am able to get on Jarred's RedCineX box and pull some 6K tiffs, I'll post images from my shoot. 2K DPXs will not cut it. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do that now until Mid-Aug as I'm booked up on work like a dog.

Hopefully, other's test images will be trickling in before that.
 
Christopher Probst said:
Hey all, in anticipation of Toia's analysis, I'd like to start to add my impressions into the mix... Now, I am trying to get down to Red Studios to analyze my footage in RCX, but I've been bogged down with work. I will say that I did notice a new behavior to the color science of the dragon as opposed to the history of the Mysterium and Mysterium-X...

I'll explain what I experienced.

With the original color science of Raw vs. Red Color/Gamma... when you toggled between Raw and RC, you could track what differences in ISO did to your historam and waveform. At 640 ISO, you could watch the waveform drop when you toggled to Raw... When you progressively dropped the ISO settings, you could see the Raw output difference also decrease. To the point when you set ISO at 320, you would not see a difference in output exposure on the waveform when toggling between RedColor and Raw. The only difference would be in the color LUT that was applied to the RC output versus Raw. That for me pointed to a "native" point of sensitivity of the Mysterium X sensor.

Any increase in ISO setting was an application of gain to the raw signal to "illustrate" what raising the raw picture's gain in post would look like. When you raised it up to 800 ISO, this was the threshold where the first hints of noise would appear. This is why I always preferred to work at 500/640 unless I was desperate. The way the Dragon behaves seems to be different. Perhaps Graeme can chime in here, but what I experienced as I was tinkering in the few moments I had on my shoot was not the same. The way the Dragon applies RedColor and also displays the Raw signal appears to be different. I tried upping and lowering the ISO to ascertain a "base ISO"... but I couldn't pin-point any situation where the Raw and Redcolor output coincided. Even down to 200 ISO!

Now this may be a function of the new approach to its image and dynamic range handling. And that's probably what I was seeing. I had to move on and didn't have time to ponder it, nor ask Jarred to elaborate on set. What I did see was I didn't experience any demonstrable noise at the ISOs I was working at. I was interested in utilizing 2000 ISO, but I just had too damn much exposure and didn't want to stop down the lens... I preferred to be more wide open. Also, my engrained working style with Red has been programmed into my DNA to seek a lower ISO for a cleaner signal, as long as I had a goodly "thick" neg to work with.

Once I am able to get on Jarred's RedCineX box and pull some 6K tiffs, I'll post images from my shoot. 2K DPXs will not cut it. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do that now until Mid-Aug as I'm booked up on work like a dog.

Hopefully, other's test images will be trickling in before that.
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Chris,

I know your scene was too bright for 2000ISO, but was there a time when you were able to flick it over to 2000 just to see the noise level in the darks?
 
Unfortunately, my first priority was to shoot the project, and I had virtually no help in doing that. It was exhausting and I was giving everything I had to just get it shot and meet the standards that we wanted to meet. There was zero science involved. It was by the gut, down and dirty film-making survival instincts. I hope to have more time to "bond" with my images with Jarred's RedCine soon, so I can play with those very aspects, post defacto and see what the raw images are capable of. If I get Sat off, I'll see if that perhaps can happen. Believe me, I TOO would like to see just what I shot!
 
Christopher Probst said:
Unfortunately, my first priority was to shoot the project, and I had virtually no help in doing that. It was exhausting and I was giving everything I had to just get it shot and meet the standards that we wanted to meet. There was zero science involved. It was by the gut, down and dirty film-making survival instincts. I hope to have more time to "bond" with my images with Jarred's RedCine soon, so I can play with those very aspects, post defacto and see what the raw images are capable of. If I get Sat off, I'll see if that perhaps can happen. Believe me, I TOO would like to see just what I shot!
Click to expand...

no worries, just thought I'd ask. If you ever need any help feel free to reach out. I'd be more than happy to lend you a helping hand.
 
Chris Henze said:
+1 Well said Andy. I'd also add thanks to Chris and Phil for their input. Also most of all Jim and Jannard for the beast!
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I knew it! Jim and Jannard were two separate human beings. Red was a damn too big of a project for one single person to start off :-)
 
It's already after-noon down under.
Mark is busy with RC-X...and some talks with Jim and Jarred are going on in the background.

"Presentation is everything"...eh, Mark?
 
During the last time I had my hands on Dragon I was able to crank around a bit in the ISO range.

I have a theory and it's all going to depend on what you're comfortable with really.

Until I get a real close look at the latest Dragon build of Redcine-X Pro and some frames I'm somewhat hesitant to say a thing until I see frames closer, but I did have the magnify to 100% on and was making observations.

There's going to be a sweet spot in terms of a "clean image" and the maximum dynamic range you'll be able to capture. That's a given.

However, I think you're going to see a much wider usable ISO range. Like much, much wider. Don't want to put a top range ISO number on that, but it's high.

Hopefully the next time I'm at Red I'll be able to look closer into the REDCODE.

I'm incredibly grateful to get my hands on these prototypes and get familiar with Dragon. In a very short time I've been able to learn a lot. That will help me and everybody in the very near future. Heck of birthday present :)
 
Phil Holland said:
During the last time I had my hands on Dragon I was able to crank around a bit in the ISO range.

I have a theory and it's all going to depend on what you're comfortable with really.

Until I get a real close look at the latest Dragon build of Redcine-X Pro and some frames I'm somewhat hesitant to say a thing until I see frames closer, but I did have the magnify to 100% on and was making observations.

There's going to be a sweet spot in terms of a "clean image" and the maximum dynamic range you'll be able to capture. That's a given.

However, I think you're going to see a much wider usable ISO range. Like much, much wider. Don't want to put a top range ISO number on that, but it's high.

Hopefully the next time I'm at Red I'll be able to look closer into the REDCODE.

I'm incredibly grateful to get my hands on these prototypes and get familiar with Dragon. In a very short time I've been able to learn a lot. That will help me and everybody in the very near future. Heck of birthday present :)
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That must mean I'm next, my birthday is soon...
 
Night tests completed.... and WOW ! took our little team by surprise. Better results than we had hoped for.
4000ISO is completely useable. Even some of the 6400 iso scenes are good to use.

Spoke to Jarred today,
We are good to share Saturday onwards.

Which is good timing for me, because I have to go through several hundred test shots to find images that can represent the cameras dynamic range properly.
( Not to mention I have to go back to my real job tomorrow, because I have producers about to kill me if I keep playing Mr camera tester nerd )

This thread is done, Im starting a new one Friday / Saturday.

Here is a teaser image. :)
Enjoy.

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/DRAGON/red-1.jpg

red-1.jpg
 
That is impressive...Cant wait untill Saturday!!

Mark Toia said:
Night tests completed.... and WOW ! took our little team by surprise. Better results than we had hoped for.
4000ISO is completely useable. Even some of the 6400 iso scenes are good to use.

Spoke to Jarred today,
We are good to share Saturday onwards.

Which is good timing for me, because I have to go through several hundred test shots to find images that can represent the cameras dynamic range properly.
( Not to mention I have to go back to my real job tomorrow, because I have producers about to kill me if I keep playing Mr camera tester nerd )

This thread is done, Im starting a new one Friday / Saturday.

Here is a teaser image. :)
Enjoy.

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/DRAGON/red-1.jpg

red-1.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Grumble... looks like the Dragon is on my radar now... was hoping to stay MX.

Dragon and the Motion mount will be a killer combo and redefine working outside, I think. The idea of having incamera digital ND as well as dialable shutter, linked with the Dragon;s DR (which is what's really exciting) and extended ISO, is exciting,

It would be good to get Toia a motion mount, as his style of work will really highlight how good it is... so let's petition J&J to put him high on the list :)

Looking forward to seeing more at the weekend.
 
The joys of being an early bird. Thank you Mark.
Mark Toia said:
Night tests completed.... and WOW ! took our little team by surprise. Better results than we had hoped for.
4000ISO is completely useable. Even some of the 6400 iso scenes are good to use.

Spoke to Jarred today,
We are good to share Saturday onwards.

Which is good timing for me, because I have to go through several hundred test shots to find images that can represent the cameras dynamic range properly.
( Not to mention I have to go back to my real job tomorrow, because I have producers about to kill me if I keep playing Mr camera tester nerd )

This thread is done, Im starting a new one Friday / Saturday.

Here is a teaser image. :)
Enjoy.

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/DRAGON/red-1.jpg

red-1.jpg
Click to expand...
 
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