Dragon vs Alexa vs Mx. Now, please!

[Nick Morrison]

Isn't the dust still settling after that Zacuto shootout? I don't think Ryan ever recovered.

http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=4955533891225329768

Agreed. I never liked how the deck was stacked against Ryan that year. He was representing RED by himself, while most other brands had DPs with an "ASC" after their name. And each team was asked to "creatively" light their scene. Yikes. Even some of the best on these boards would probably wince at having to go head to head with some of the Academy's finest. I've always felt like Ryan faced an uphill battle that year, and deserved massive kudos for entering the maw of the beast - when he must have known he'd be eaten alive.

Brave guy - always admired him for that test.

 

[Jonathan Yonkers]

Kemaletting. You got a point, how ever bringing one to Costa Rica is an other story. If I hear of one landing, you bet your brains I would do just that.
Zakaree. Here is a fact for you. You are also loosing your shit over the Dragon: FACT. You would love to see a side by side shoot: FACT.
I am asking for some one to share their precious time with us by way of shooting a side by side. It could be anything. Not to show that cameras "make the shot", we are past that. This is just to satisfied the curious beast in all of us. If you dont want to see one, you could look the other way when they come up. But please dont mind if I am absolutely loosing my shit over Dragon.

 

[Tony Harris]

The Alexa is a 1080p camera correct? and the Dragon, Epic M and Epic x are the best 6K & 5K in the world so why test side by side? We ask that question when the Dragon came out for a Dragon & Epic side by side and it didn't change a thing because both cameras are great. Youtube has a lot of side by sides with Alexa and Epics etc.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The Alexa is a 1080p camera correct? and the Dragon, Epic M and Epic x are the best 6K & 5K in the world so why test side by side? We ask that question when the Dragon came out for a Dragon & Epic side by side and it didn't change a thing because both cameras are great. Youtube has a lot of side by sides with Alexa and Epics etc.

Alexa can shoot as high as 2.8k I believe. However it appears many shoot 1080 and are very happy with the results.

 

[Travis MacRitchie]

I think there is a place for these types of tests, if the testers are extremely detail oriented and make clear their methodology, including their post-production processing of the images. Yes, all are capable of great images, and even the best in the field will have a hard time telling which image is from which camera when looked at on standard tv's, projectors, or computer displays...

But, there is value to a DP in performing and viewing such a test, especially when they have a specific project in mind and are looking to find certain attributes to match a look/style they are going for.

I would love to do such a test myself. I have an Alexa, and an Epic standing by to do one, if someone cares to bring a Dragon over we can take a Saturday and knock this out. I'll probably do one for my own curiosity anyway once I do get a Dragon (Red, are you listening?).

So I wouldn't harp on the guy who started this thread too much, yes he could have asked in a more etiquette friendly way, but I think there is a demand to see such a test, and when the info is presented in a clear way with testing methods spelled out correctly it can hopefully avoid too much controversy or Arri v. Red fanboy style arguments.

 

[Jonathan Yonkers]

Travis, it would be fantastic if you or any one could do a test of any magnitude showing this wonderful machines! Yes, I could have asked more politely, sorry no one caught on my dry humor. I did not know in this forum you had to wear a tie and boring suit. My apologies.
It would be amazing to see this beasts shooting under harsh lighting conditions and really put them to test. My infinite appreciation.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

there will be a test with about 8 cams, i will be involved and i fully expect to be eaten alive after it

these things are resource hogs and not particularily fun to do. but they will come.

 

[Bob Gundu]

there will be a test with about 8 cams, i will be involved and i fully expect to be eaten alive after it

these things are resource hogs and not particularily fun to do. but they will come.

Best of luck Gunleik. I do not envy you! :smiley:

 

[Christian Jadot]

Watch Game of Thrones Season 4 and see if you can tell the difference. (Speaking of which, any Dragon shots in the trailer?)

On a more serious note, I do appreciate the MX vs The Dragon tests, it helps me know what the upgrade will entail. (Especially for us Scarlet owners!) Although the test versus other cameras may be "fun", I really don't see too much value added.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

I'll probably do one for my own curiosity anyway once I do get a Dragon.

can't freakin wait to see that

 

[Jan Reiff]

i throw in a request for an additional cam in the tests

a 35mm negative and 4K scan of it ;-)

 

[Travis MacRitchie]

I can throw in an F55 shooting 16bit Raw?

Couldn't help but notice you named your Red One after me Jan, nice

i throw in a request for an additional cam in the tests

a 35mm negative and 4K scan of it ;-)

 

[Jan Reiff]

indeed Travis heh heh

you are lucky that your name is not beethoven :biggrin:

honestly, it is named after Travis from Taxi Driver, Top 5 of "my best movies " ever ;-)



and: for the tests: would be funny to put one hvx200 or varicam in it - what a massive development of digital cameras in the last few years, today i switched on my old hvx, ... wtf, how the time is running, seems to be yesterday when i got it, but otherwise too, it feels like a device from last century ...

 

[Jeff McCoy]

A lot of uptight comments on this thread…geez! Seems like a lot of people are trying to justify why not to shoot a test, maybe because they are afraid of the results. I for one would love to see a comparison test. Personally, I do not really care for all of the technical tests. I like to just shoot real world stuff and decide which looks better straight out of the camera. I have a feeling dragon will win, but it would still be great to see side-by-side comparisons. I cannot imagine any reason not to do a test. I can get an Alexa and I have an epic-x and would happily shoot a test or loan my time and the equipment to making it happen, just need a Dragon.

 

[Les Dittert]

I did that test, and there is a thread here on RU for it somewhere. Images included.
MX blew away film.

i throw in a request for an additional cam in the tests

a 35mm negative and 4K scan of it ;-)

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

A lot of uptight comments on this thread…geez! Seems like a lot of people are trying to justify why not to shoot a test, maybe because they are afraid of the results. I for one would love to see a comparison test. Personally, I do not really care for all of the technical tests. I like to just shoot real world stuff and decide which looks better straight out of the camera. I have a feeling dragon will win, but it would still be great to see side-by-side comparisons. I cannot imagine any reason not to do a test. I can get an Alexa and I have an epic-x and would happily shoot a test or loan my time and the equipment to making it happen, just need a Dragon.

I'll be blunt as usual and say that to call yourself a pro DP you need to not only shoot tech tests but learn how to read them. Real world does not show you precise limitations.

Let's use a car analogy, and assume someone wants to be a race driver. If they behaved the way you prefer they would drive the car around "real world streets" and see how it performs, whereas really they would need to drive at a specific speeds at specific temperatures and hit curves at certain angles and speeds, and take careful note of the exact conditions when the car looses tire grip, overheats, and so on.

Real world streets might not provide exact data like that, as they may not contain just the right angle of curve and so on to test vehicle limits, and even if they did, since the driver is just driving around randomly chosen roads, he would not know the exact angle, or when he hit it, as he would not have precisely measured it.

If he picked a car by just driving around wherever, which is just like "real world shot testing" he might also easily make the mistake of picking the car that he happened to drive on easier road conditions, by the luck of chance, not the better car.

This is not a perfect analogy, but...

WIthout testing, you also have no way of interpreting what your light meeter readings are telling you, how to order a light and gel package and so on.. "Oh I'm three stops over, is that a problem?" "I saw Dragon make pretty shots" will not help you answer that question in any useful manner.

 

[Jonathan Yonkers]

It would be logical to me that RED has already performed every single test in the books against all cameras, specially against MX, its own achiever and Alexa, its main competitor. Red has always shared awesome test charts and test. Until they dont get the new color science, I think it makes no sense for them to share anything at this point, but for the users out there, it makes no sense not to do these tests.
Although things will most likely improve with the color science, I would love to see a luma chart to actually see how the roll off behaves and registers on a chart and then see back lit situation in real life, like shooting against bright windows and doors to know how you can work in harsh lights and how it stands against other cameras.
I would love to see back lit skin test like the lovely images shot by Peter Lyons Collisterside, but side to side. His images are absolutely incredible and show the beauty of the dragon. I would love to see that comparison, specially because it seems really hard to beat.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As to the validity... I am sure the Dragon will get even better. But it is currently in production, and this is what we have now.

 

[Jeff McCoy]

I'll be blunt as usual and say that to call yourself a pro DP you need to not only shoot tech tests but learn how to read them. Real world does not show you precise limitations. Let's use a car analogy, and assume someone wants to be a race driver. If they behaved the way you prefer they would drive the car around " real world streets" and see how it performs, whereas really they would need to drive at a specific speeds at specific temperatures and hit curves at certain angles and speeds, and take careful note of the exact conditions when the car looses tire grip, overheats, and so on. Real world streets might not provide exact data like that, as they may not contain just the right angle of curve and so on to test vehicle limits, and even if they did, since the driver is just driving around randomly chosen roads, he would not know the exact angle, or when he hit it, as he would not have precisely measured it. If he picked a car by just driving around wherever, which is just like "real world shot testing" he might also easily make the mistake of picking the car that he happened to drive on easier road conditions, by the luck of chance, not the better car. This is not a perfect analogy, but... WIthout testing, you also have no way of interpreting what your light meeter readings are telling you, how to order a light and gel package and so on.. "Oh I'm three stops over, is that a problem?" "I saw Dragon make pretty shots" will not help you answer that question in any useful manner.

Hi Robert, Thanks for your reply! I think I confused you by my previous comment. Let me clarify that I do understand and appreciate technical testing. I was just making a note that I personally want to see more a real-world side-by-side comparison test. That is just me speaking. Maybe that makes me a hack, or a fool, but I am being honest that I am dying to see a test like that. There is a lot of discussion about which cameras have less noise, or better dynamic range, low light, etc. Yes, that is super important for a million reasons, to have those answers. Still, the average movie-goer or commercial watcher (the Joe-schmoe consumer on the street) has a very different view of the images we create – to them, they look good or they don’t. They couldn’t even tell you why they like one image over the other, "they just do". There is something to be said that sometimes imperfections can be beautiful. Some people like a little noise, some people like the OLPF flare, some like film grain or motion blur. Heck I have one client that wants to shoot everything at super high shutter, "just because". I realize that you have to know everything there is to know about the tools you use, and that is what sets the pros apart from the prosumer world. But keep in mind, that those people might decide to purchase a Red for entirely different reasons than you might. All of it is important. Technical testing is absolutely necessary. That is how a good DP is able to know his tools and how the manufacturer can make them better. My comment (that I want to see real world comparisons) was only made because that is something I want to see. I really haven’t seen enough of that from Dragon yet, only a few limited technical tests. I then read a few comments from various people that seem to try and justify why NOT to shoot a real-world test. That doesn’t make any sense to me. So again I want to be clear that I am not trying to discredit technical testing. Using your analogy of cars… Car manufacturers put their vehicles through rigorous testing on race tracks, burning the brakes, crash testing, extreme weather situations, etc. They have to do this to make a good product. But some potential buyers want to buy a car for its looks, some for its performance, size, price, availability, or a combination of these. I definitely appreciate a car that performs well in testing, but I also want it to look good too. A professional race car driver might not care about the way his car looks as long as it’s winning races- just as my grandma could care less that her car takes 30 seconds to hit 60mph because she likes the way it looks. Sure, lighting, lenses, and color grading all have dramatic effects on the image. I have seen tests where no one could guess which camera was used to capture the original footage. That said, I still want to see what happens when you use all of the same elements and only change the camera body itself… in a non-technical exercise - out of the studio and into the wild. I want to shoot a sunset, the ocean, a busy street at night… anything outside of a controlled environment, side-by-side, and see how the images compare (same exposure, lens, ISO, white balance, etc and only changing the camera body). This doesn’t mean I will only judge the cameras on these comparisons alone, it’s just something I would love to see. ; )

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I will never do a side by side... Only did it few times to convince large production of the better camera for their own good... Every time but once, all jobs went to Epic, and only once to Alexa, but that was down specifically to meet the end client needs for the production at hand, and of course there was a good DIT and a good Colorist to feed their Post needs, I just don't see side by sides as a good idea, as they are most always never done in a unbiased way.

Any one truly interested in one camera vs. the other should arrange for their own test one there own term to satisfy their needs, and then make an inform decision on which camera to buy or rent.