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Dragon vs Alexa vs Mx. Now, please!

J

Jonathan Yonkers

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It seems like people are getting their cameras all over the world and all seem to just post "I just got mine" posts here. Can some one please cut the crap and please shoot something using all three cameras already?
I dont know if I am missing something here, but why is no one doing this yet?
We all know dragon is the best sensor ever made. The shots by Toia and others more than prove that, yet. I, as many, would love to see how much better. This is a total fanboy request, I am the first to admit, but I know everyone out there wants to see this, so please do it and get it over with already. You are guys are killing us. At least, killing me.
 
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Jonathan Yonkers said:
It seems like people are getting their cameras all over the world and all seem to just post lame "I just got mine" posts here. Can some one please cut the crap and please shoot a decent shot out side using all three cameras already?
I dont know if I am missing something here, but why is no one doing this yet?
We all know dragon is the best sensor ever made. The shots by Toia and other more than prove that, yet. I would love to see how much better. This is a total fanboy request, but I know everyone out there wants to see this, so please do it and get it over with already. You are guys are killing us. At least, killing me.
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Posts like this make me not want to post and share anything. I'll just "cut the crap" and share a link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette
 
Thank you for the lecture Mark: Etiquette (/ˈɛtɨkɛt/ or /ˈɛtɨkɪt/, French: [e.ti.kɛt]) is a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms.
I see nothing conventional about RED, so please spare me your condescending links . If you do not want to share, that is your choice and I respect it. For anyone willing to share some lovely images and your well appreciated time, I send my huge thanks!
 
Jonathan Yonkers said:
Thank you for the lecture Mark: Etiquette (/ˈɛtɨkɛt/ or /ˈɛtɨkɪt/, French: [e.ti.kɛt]) is a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms.
I see nothing conventional about RED, so please spare me your condescending links . If you do not want to share, that is your choice and I respect it. For anyone willing to share some lovely images and your well appreciated time, I send my huge thanks!
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Mark is very generous with his time, and I respect his caution. I don't think he's being condescending, but probably wary as he's actually in a position todo the test you ask...but may not want to devote the massive resources and/or time it would require...to do it properly. It's easy to do quickly, but very hard to do correctly in a way that can please everyone. There is a built in Catch 22 that needs to be appreciated.

Mark's time is money, and he may not want to spend a week creating a test...so others can take 5mins to watch it, and one minute to post: "Thanks" or "You suck".
 
Nick, agreed 100%. This post is not meant to demand anyone's time or underestimate any ones value in any way. Evey one here (except me) is not only the best in the industry, but the best in the world. Yet all made of flesh and bone and burning with mundaine curiosity and passion. My questions remains: is there anyone out there? anyone at all?
 
I am eager to see a Zacuto shoot out type analysis (not that they are unbiased or special by any means...just can't think of another example.) Anyways, this done by an unbiased REDUSER or core of REDUSERS who have a Dragon and Epic MX. 6K vs 5K, both down sampled to 4K, seeing both of them at 1:1, dynamic range, low light up to 12,000, motion, skin tones, etc.

I wish RED would have done one of these themselves (biased or unbiased...I don't care lol) just to show how much better Dragon is than Epic...even if it is much more subtle then going from M to MX.

Don't get me wrong I have seen a lot of great stuff on here in both stills & video form, but seeing a video like this would be super awesome and I would totally geek out over it :)
 
I'd be glad to do it if you could source owners to donate all three cameras to me for the day or donate the ~$3000 it costs to rent those cameras for a day :)

There are so few dragons out there, its hard to imagine they wouldnt all be working pretty hard and out on jobs right now making money for the lucky owners who got them first. I doubt owners have the time to just do a test. Perhaps you should kickstarter a budget for the camera test if you think others might be interested...
 
Jonathan Yonkers said:
It seems like people are getting their cameras all over the world and all seem to just post "I just got mine" posts here. Can some one please cut the crap and please shoot something using all three cameras already?
I dont know if I am missing something here, but why is no one doing this yet?
We all know dragon is the best sensor ever made. The shots by Toia and others more than prove that, yet. I, as many, would love to see how much better. This is a total fanboy request, I am the first to admit, but I know everyone out there wants to see this, so please do it and get it over with already. You are guys are killing us. At least, killing me.
Click to expand...

Dragons aren't exactly sitting on the shelfs. Most everyone who has one puts it into immediate use. When someone gets a chance I guarantee you they will.
 
The big problem with side by side tests is that it never works out well for the testers. They are always labeled as biased by those that have a vested interest in the camera systems that don't fair as well.

Having produced a few of these tests before I know first hand just how hard it is to keep all the variables consistent from camera to camera but more importantly not all cameras perform at their best when all the variables are matched. This has been seen time and time again when Red cameras are baked out to a DPX frame or some other format in a way that matches another camera but you would never do in actual production. Even if you could get all the cameras to preform ideally in a given situation you will still have people claiming that the subject matter or the lighting favored one system over another.

Finally, in the end it doesn't matter what a bunch of other guys in a room can do with a few cameras and lenses, it matters what YOU can do with it given your needs, limitations and creativity.

If my opinion maters at all, I've worked extensively with the Alexa, MX and a bit with the Dragon and I can't wait for my upgrade, I was never going to buy an Alexa, it never made business sense for me, but it's a reliable, safe camera, like a Toyota Camry. The Dragon is a freakin' 911 turbo, you have to pay attention and know how to drive but if you do the performance is phenomenal.
 
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Couldn't agree more Evan. The geek side of me craves seeing that geeky stuff. I'm still Jake with my RED ONE MX image. Just shot a big feature with it and we couldn't be happier with the images coming from it. These are just tools...but they sure are a lot of fun ;)
 
If anyone is afraid of being called biased/fanboys I'd be happy to administer the tests. :D Alexa people say I'm a RED fanboy and RED people call me an Alexa fanboy so everyone already hates me haha.
 
He only got 28 posts. Don't let people like this distract you from all the good and helpful work you have been doing. Your work for RU is appreciated.

Mark L. Pederson said:
Posts like this make me not want to post and share anything. I'll just "cut the crap" and share a link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette
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Yup. I'm glad just to have a nice camera to create my vision. The Epic Dragon is at least one of the top five best cameras for cinema in the world. That's good enough for me.

Evin Grant said:
Finally, in the end it doesn't matter what a bunch of other guys in a room can do with a few cameras and lenses, it matters what YOU can do with it given your needs, limitations and creativity.
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I just wish there was a large company out there that knew everything there is to know about the RED One, MX, and Dragon, that had plenty of cameras on site and a large, knowledgeable staff, and a vested interest in the results, and a market to sell too and customers ready to buy….and the means and knowledge to do an accurate test…and release the results…so we could put any confusion to bed. Wait…maybe there is one company. All the respect as I am a satisfied and happy RED owner…would be really interested to see something from the source. Would be a good sales move if the results are what they are speculated to be. Would be nice to have it laid out so its an obvious business move for everyone to move to Dragon by showing undeniably stellar results in comparison to some of the other cameras. I know the magic happens with the person, not the camera…just thinking in terms of this thread. I personally have gone back and forth a dozen times or so. Please…..push me over the edge. Everyones tests are really appreciated…and I know the time it takes and its tough to have everyones mixed comments. Maybe there is someone closer to home that could put that Dragon footprint in stone in repect to its prey :)

Just a thought.
 
problem with any test, is that they can be very misleading

it is like I can state, and be right at saying i can make noisefree images at "any" iso on the Dragon.

because i know how to do that....


on cml now, there is a test showing off how the Alexa can recover the highlights. what that test shows me is that the cineon encoding works as it should... it does not really give any info about the camera.. :-)

and that is the big problem with tests. unøess you understand the info given, they are not very informative and actually they can be very misleading...
 
Camera tests, are a double edge sword, specially for those who do them. That is quite unfortunate, specially when the one who posts the test is a talented, expensive asset, that does not need to take any heat from anyone. Agreed 100%. Also, it is not the camera, its the talent. That is redundant to say the least. This is not about measurement of talent, creativity or world peace. This is about the dirty, geeky useless numbers. Plain simple guys looking under the hood of a friends new hot rod.
There is not a single being on this forum that is not dying to see more and more footage from the dragon, specially measured against MX and/or specially Alexa. It makes sense that no single Dragon out there is just sitting on a shelf. Yes. This is the best sensor ever made and it just came out. Of course most dragons out there are booked and making money. But with that being said. Not everything is about the money. God know the founder of this company did not need take money or heat from anyone here or anywhere. Yet he did. Many of you out there have fire spitting dragons and will share gorgeous images of side to side shoots. The questions is when?
I salute you for your bravery. Thank you for sharing!
 
I agree that post test always be a fairy tale.
I see and read that many people are concerned about the low brightness, wants to know if he can shoot at high ISO with DRagon.
I did some quick tests with my Epic and the new Dragon CArbon in night mode without light using only the light from the street and shop windows.
It is very difficult to judge, but Dragon is definitely better, does not suffer or suffer much less than the Mysterium-X with light below 3000 kelvin, you can push up to 1600 and perhaps even 2000 iso be equal to Epic 800 iso, as background noise .
So do not expect to see DRagon to ISO 4000 without noise in low light area, a Canon c300 would be better but not in dynamic range.
Personally I do not like to raise the ISO to see what the eye does not see, are perhaps as Toia, before shooting low iso, then use fast lenses, and if you do not just get up the iso, but never go over 1000. DRagon be the best digital sensor with which I had to do myself.
When you begin to use the R3D Dragon in davinci or REDCINE-x or any other program you will realize how Dragon responds very well to your expectations, much better Mysterium, but you have to try this person is an individual feeling.
Gunleik, Phil; Toia, Mark, Chris will have well described their feelings about DRagon and I also I like you, I wanted to see test and test again to convince me ... but then when you begin to use DRagon all is forgotten and you will realize how powerful is this sensor.

This being just my thoughts. and sorry for my bad English.
If you are not convinced you wait a few months and already see some movies and some other work.
 
FACT: the majority of the world cant tell the difference between most modern digital cameras.. from red one M, to MX, to Dragon, To Alexa, To BlackMagic..

they all look good.. the reason I dont tell people which camera I shot a projects on when asked, is because it doesnt matter.. the camera doesnt make the shot.. and quite honestly I laugh when people look at a web video of dragon and loose their shit..
Im sure its a fine sensor.. dont lie and tell me you can tell the difference between it , an alexa or regular MX..
 
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