Dragon upgrades

[Eric Oh]

I really don't think the Alexa Mini has anything to do with RED. It's clearly not a production camera, it's a specialized body designed to enable a popular new tool, the light weight gimbal. ARRI is providing a solution to a demand and expanding their arsenal (yes i said that). Just like with the Alexa M it's creating an ecosystem to fit various needs rather then the one size fits all approach that RED has created. I don't think ARRI is worried or cares much about the owner operator market. The mini will provide a solution for big productions who want to stay on the same camera system for all of their shots.
I don't think it's purpose is to go after or copy RED, it's purpose is to keep the production that would have had no choice but to use RED or Canon for certain shots to stay with ARRI.
my 2 ¢

I totally agree. Was thinking the same thing. Arri is attempting to keep Arri-centric cinematographers within their eco-system.

On another note, I like many here am seriously considering the Carbon upgrade when Weapon is announced at NAB '15. Exciting times!

 

[Karl H]

Its the same path we have taken since day one. R1 came along, then we made the new MX sensor. Epic came along with a new body and used the same MX sensor. Then the Dragon sensor came along and it worked with the same body as Epic. Now there is a new body, Weapon, and it follows the same path. Then there will be a new sensor that comes next, and then a new body after that. Rinse and Repeat.

I see that, but I guess the difference is there was an upgrade option for Red One users who did not MX their cameras, to go to Epic. I think I went from Red One Mysterium to an Epic MX (new brain & new sensor) as an upgrade. And if I'm honest, if you hadn't offered that, I'd have sold my Red One and I wouldn't be a Red customer today... The MX alone was not something I wanted to upgrade to, but MX and new body half the weight, new features - yeh that was worth it.

Now of course if you're no longer allowing upgrade paths like that, then fine. This isn't a complaint, just pointing out that it's a slight change in your approach and you might lose out on some older customers. You have to draw a line at some point, and no other company touches the Red upgrade programme; but in the past you did allow upgrades from 2 generations prior.

 

[Bob Gundu]

$9500 until NAB.

Hmm. I can't stomach $12k for a temporary Dragon upgrade, but Weapon looks interesting.
I wonder if I'm better off buying a new Scarlet Dragon, selling my Epic-X, and then upgrading to Weapon when available...
Of course the re-sale value of my Epic-X probably just plummeted...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If RED doesn't produce a module that takes 1.8" SSD for Weapon, I'm sure some enterprising third party will step into the breech, IF the demand is really there.

It can't be hard; the interfaces & protocols are (and have to be!) industry-standard; the differences are purely mechanical; the housing and connectors. There may be performance constraints, if the mini SSDs are significantly faster and Weapon is built to take advantage of that, but it's certainly do-able.

Mike

The problem is that the 1.8" SSDs are not fast enough. Their interface is based on SATA 3Gbps and the SSDs themselves, even the fastest 512GB ones, can't even fully saturate that interface. The 128, 256 and especially the 64GB capacity ones are significantly slower. The newer 240GB ones are faster, but still fall short of the 512GB ones. So, to make these work on Weapon, we would at least need a module that can double them up and interleave or stripe data between a matched pair of 1.8" SSDs. And moving forward, that won't be enough. I don't know about you, but I also don't want that sort of headache and extra potential for failure in my acquisition media.

There is definitely a market for a way to use the older media with Weapon. Unfortunately there are also times when reality overtakes technology.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I still think a RED thunderbolt SSD RAID (for editing) could be a fun idea.
Basically a cabinet for 8-16 of the 1,8 SSD and a thunderbolt 2 hub

 

[David Battistella]

I'm not sure people get the philosophy.

There seems to be a camp that thinks users get screwed or their camera becomes obsolete and looses value. I have a never upgraded Scarlet. That is an amazing 5K time-lapse camera because it has the benefit of all the Firmware upgrades. Then, in a pinch, it's an amazing back up body/b-cam at 4K 24fps. I don't feel like I have lost a thing. I have only gained.

Now, my EPIC Dragon works until an upgrade sometime in the future. Like any stock, the value is determined when you get in or out, but while I am in, I have an amazing cinema tool in my hands. Even if I still had an EPIC MX today, i'd be pretty happy at all the features that still beat out most of the marketplace.

in other words, while I use the first generation dragon and anticipate the next generation weapon, the last generation MX is still kinda outperforming the competition. RED is, through their model, keeping it's users, two generations ahead.

Now folks will say that ARRI is going to have this 65mm sensor. But that is going to be highly specialised and much larger budget to shoot than what I could do as an independent film maker. I've just completed 4 ULTRA HD DCP's while major studios with insane budgets are capturing films in 2K. Little old me, indy filmmaker.

That is nuts and that is how much RED has turned things on it's ear.

Battistella

 

[Jay Silver]

The big question for me is do I sell my redmags now...4x128gb, 2x512gb(red ones) along with the side module and buy a couple of mini mags to hold me over till the deal with the weapon is revealed and buy more then with the weapon upgrade...

I for one couldn't give a shit what the camera is called. You don't like weapon? Put some gaffers tape over it like someone suggested and be done with it. Call it what ever you want. It's your camera.

Also, from my understanding, there's no new sensor...so what's everyone talking about sensor? Jarred said that this weapon body is first, then a year or so down the line there'll be a new sensor.
Will we get more pixels out of the Dragon sensor that we have now? No idea. But I can barely cover the sensor with the glass I can get my hands on.

Anyway, I think being given the opportunity to, yet again, upgrade my camera for a lot less than purchasing a new one if fucking awesome.

I owned an Alexa when they first came out. Great camera. Made nice, somewhat sterile images, but people liked it and it was cool to have both. What wasn't cool was Arri charging me $1250 for a "hi speed license". That was bullshit. Especially since the "license" was like a tiny text file telling the camera it can now go 120fps.

Just got my olpf swapped out and received my LLO olpf so I've got both...I can't wait to start playing at night with the LLO.

Looking forward to the release of all the specs on Weapon. Now, I just have to start saving some cash.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

My current idea about my personal Weapon upgrade path: go with the flow, don't look back for now.

Then when the wave is over and prices for older REDs are dropping, I will buy an used body as back-up and as a second camera for an upcoming project.

This second camera will use all the stuff that Weapon doesn't like. Easy to kit out the second one with my well cared for "gear".

On the other hand, the rebate on the new cards will perhaps pay partially for the second body.

Thank you RED. Your support is really appreciated.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm planning to stick with the mags I got until I upgrade or until I know more about what the deal is since I don't know if the EPIC Dragon mini mag module is compatible with the Weapon Dragon. With the R1 MX the side modules were not compatible to EPIC. We don't know how much the body style has changed. I guess the safest purchase is media and a minimag reader since that will work going forward.

Battistella

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Yes, David, This is certainly a safe bet. My only question would be, is it better to buy a mini SSD side module now and invest additional money in the upgrade of it, or wait until a "native" Weapon-SSD-side module is available. Perhaps the second route is less expensive. What are your thoughts about?

I'm planning to stick with the mags I got until I upgrade or until I know more about what the deal is since I don't know if the EPIC Dragon mini mag reader is compatible with the Weapon Dragon. With the R1 MX the side modules were not compatible to EPIC. We don't know how much th body style has changed. I guess the safest purchase is media and a minimag reader since that will work going forward.

Battistella

 

[David Battistella]

Not sure.

The question is whether the current minimag module carries over to Weapon and we don't know that.

Battistella

 

[Josh Becker]

The big question for me is do I sell my redmags now...4x128gb, 2x512gb(red ones) along with the side module and buy a couple of mini mags to hold me over till the deal with the weapon is revealed and buy more then with the weapon upgrade...

I for one couldn't give a shit what the camera is called. You don't like weapon? Put some gaffers tape over it like someone suggested and be done with it. Call it what ever you want. It's your camera.

Also, from my understanding, there's no new sensor...so what's everyone talking about sensor? Jarred said that this weapon body is first, then a year or so down the line there'll be a new sensor.
Will we get more pixels out of the Dragon sensor that we have now? No idea. But I can barely cover the sensor with the glass I can get my hands on.

Anyway, I think being given the opportunity to, yet again, upgrade my camera for a lot less than purchasing a new one if fucking awesome.

I owned an Alexa when they first came out. Great camera. Made nice, somewhat sterile images, but people liked it and it was cool to have both. What wasn't cool was Arri charging me $1250 for a "hi speed license". That was bullshit. Especially since the "license" was like a tiny text file telling the camera it can now go 120fps.

Just got my olpf swapped out and received my LLO olpf so I've got both...I can't wait to start playing at night with the LLO.

Looking forward to the release of all the specs on Weapon. Now, I just have to start saving some cash.

While licensing prices can suck ($1250 for high speed), the reality is that software still costs money to make. Someone had to work to get the camera to reliably capture the high quality image at that frame rate. Now they could charge more for the camera and include it for free, or offer it a la carte to only the people who want it (for a fee). It's a double-edged sword for the company making the device, Convergent Design has had to deal with this for their codecs on the 7Q. Sure, it's just a code you're buying to "unlock" the codec, but if I bought a 7Q out of the box ready to record ARRI RAW, Canon RAW, and FS7/700 RAW, it would sure as hell cost more than $1800.

But to elaborate on your other points, it looks like RED will be juggling back and forth between "brain" and sensor, which is fine, it's a good way to balance. So it started with Scarlet and Epic brains, then the improved Dragon sensor running off those brains, but the brain is now the bottleneck for performance. So retaining the Dragon sensor, they are beefing up the brain to include more frame rates, features, I/O, etc to take advantage of the sensor. Then a few years down the road they'll have a new sensor that can still utilize the Weapon brain, (maybe higher resolution, etc) but the brain will again be the bottleneck... and the cycle continues. Kind of like the iPhone releases... iPhone 3G, 3GS; iPhone 4, 4S; iPhone 5, 5S. Each one was a new device, but the "S" version was usually a beefed up processor to take better advantage of the other hardware.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Thanks. I thought I read that it will be upgradable, but how much work that will be...and if that cost something...: Time will tell.

Not sure.

The question is whether the current minimag module carries over to Weapon and we don't know that.

Battistella

 

[Elsie N]

Thanks. I thought I read that it will be upgradable, but how much work that will be...and if that cost something...: Time will tell.

My "guess" is that the new module will be incorporated into the design.

Not sure if there will be a monetary charge-back for cameras traded in without the current mini-mag module (this would suggest they are going to sell the trade-ins as BT, or perhaps dole them out to film schools.)

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Yes, Elsie, I asked primarily about saving money, but there is certainly a time factor involved. A new one can be taken from the shelf at RED, but an upgrade will extent the stay of the cameras at RED, etc. ... and everyone has to wait longer (given the four digit amount of cameras that might be upgraded).

So, with a complete new design, I guess the answer is, if avoidable -- don't buy now the Epic SSD Side module if Weapon is the only motivation to do so, for many reasons.

My "guess" is that the new module will be incorporated into the design.

Not sure if there will be a monetary charge-back for cameras traded in without the current mini-mag module (this would suggest they are going to sell the trade-ins as BT, or perhaps dole them out to film schools.)

Thanks BrendanLeahy, for the link of the upgrade quote.

 

[David Battistella]

Thanks. I thought I read that it will be upgradable, but how much work that will be...and if that cost something...: Time will tell.

I am not certain. I have not followed that one too closely. Minimag seems like a normal progression.

Battistella

 

[Sulekh Suman]

Weapon queries!

Weapon queries!

After silently observing 1000 posts on this thread I couldn't resist chiming in.
1. what is the basis of all the chatter surrounding the sensor-higher fps, bigger size, better signal to noise, FF, 65mm? Nothing that Jared has said so far indicated any of it. There may be another sensor down the road and this body may be capable of accommodating that size(pure speculation).
2. 1.8" Red Mags will go the CF card way.
3. Most if not all the third party accessories built and bought specifically for Epic form factor will be dead weight i.e. top plate, bottom plate, 1/8 adaptors, power plates including the fancy ones from action cam, IO interfaces etc.

Now the questions:
1. I have a brand new 7" Touch, several OLED EVFs, Switchblade, Redlink, Sidehandles, Redmote, several PL and Canon Ti mounts etc. I want to know if there will be any issues with these accessories with Weapon.
2. I have a less than a week old PV Binary distribution box for pet Dragon from Element Technica which provides 2 xSDI, Dual Anton Bauer Hot Swap, Sync, TC, Start/Stop and a whole lot of ports for powering accessories. Will it work with Weapon?

Thanks,
Sulekh

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I like this thinking... cause it could help cut down on the number of potential adopters who get in line in front of me for an upgrade. '-)

Go ahead Elsie
If you must have that latest phone...;-)
My S3 is still working fine after two years- and it was free haha....

 

[Elsie N]

Go ahead Elsie
If you must have that latest phone...;-)
My S3 is still working fine after two years- and it was free haha....

Heh, heh... my current cell phone is about 7 years old... one of those that easily pocket dials. But camera... well, I don't want to go to war (euphemistically speaking) with out the latest Rail Gun!

OBTW still using that old version Nikon mount I bought from you. That old thing doesn't need upgrading. '-)

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Heh, heh... my current cell phone is about 7 years old... one of those that easily pocket dials. But camera... well, I don't want to go to war (euphemistically speaking) with out the latest Rail Gun!

OBTW still using that old version Nikon mount I bought from you. That old thing doesn't need upgrading. '-)

Thank you Elsie!!!
yeah if it is mechanical and made well it lasts...
I just thought to throw it in here - being patient is not such a bad idea and may save money- not to mention stress and headaches- and that's real value in my book!!!