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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon upgrades

i've had my very first red camera: a fresh epic -m dragon for 8 months now and couldn't be happier... so of course all this has me BUZZING with excitement! can NAB get here like right now please? i think red's engineers can easily squeeze some time-travel abilities into Weapon and fix this whole waiting problem for me.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I think Gavin's point is that you tend to "pay up" once to get on the higher (Epic) track and, after that, the upgrade prices at each juncture, while maybe still higher, are keeping you at the "premium" level. I am not sure the mathematics are completely flawless but the general idea is a reasonable one.
Click to expand...

Oh, he's right. If I coulda, I woulda. But it applies more to Epic Dragon versus Scarlet Dragon. Scarlet Dragon versus the rest of the camera market looks pretty good. What other camera would give me Scarlet Dragon's overall specs for $9,500 or less?

Think about how many Scarlet owners could barely scrape together $9,500 and hemmed and hawed over which route to go. Those people who went Epic MX are excluded from the Weapon discount prices unless they fork over another $12,500 now.

For the strapped of cash, Scarlet Dragon's $9,500 got them a class-leading camera and a ticket to the next round with a double discount. Not too shabby of a compromise.
 
After all the dusts settle down, what priority level will the BT Dragons (that were released in August) be placed at within the upgrade scheme? I'm assuming the Weapon upgrade process will mirror the Dragon upgrade process
 
Red Rocket

Red Rocket

Hola Jarred .....

This WEAPON will need a new Red Rocket "W" ?
 
Holy Crap!

Gonna be an exciting NAB for sure.

Any hint as to how much this upgrade is going to cost?
 
PERSPECTIVE ALERT

It's true!

This thread should be a celebration instead of lamenting the progress red is making. Media is a tough one as we have all invested in all sorts of tape and media over the years. I'm sure RED is doing what is best for the ecosystem and for what gives us the best performance, which is actually very consistent with what they have always done.

Giving an an honest heads up is much more than we might get from other manufacturers. That really needs to be commended.

Sure we can grunt and groan, but it's honest. I really appreciate that.

Also, and I am not kidding, earlier today I looked at a clip from 2008 shot on my original RED One pre MX sensor.

I put Dragon color 2 and Redlog film on it. That shit looked amazing. Then I said wait, that is seven year old footage that looks better now than the day it was shot.

i did not have to pay for that improvement.

being part of the program pays for those kinds of amazing freebies, and there are many, that RED has done over the years.

Every step along this path gets more fun and jaw dropping.

I suspect this won't be any different.


Battistella
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Re Scarlet MX upgraders... GO EPIC.

I've said it every single time and I still believe it as strongly as the first upgrade opportunity. Upgrades always have historically cost the same whether you're epic or scarlet. Once you are on the Epic track you get Epic upgrades. When you are on the scarlet track you only get scarlet upgrades for the same price as epic upgrades. For a one time Epic upgrade price every camera after that is substantially better for the *same price*. An alternate way to look at it is that the Epic upgrades only cost slightly more. For $13k if I upgrade 3x I get way better upgrades than for $10k 3 times. After upgrading to Dragon I got 6k at 100fps. If I had upgraded my scarlet to dragon I would have gotten 6k at 12 fps. Both upgrades cost $10,000 one gave me highspeed and low compression for greenscreen and one gave me less framerates and compression options than an MX Epic. Weapon will probably cost the same for Scarlet and Epic customers and I imagine it's safe to say that the Epic Weapon will be substantially more badass for that same amount of money.
Click to expand...

You should not forget that people here are not all working in the same area. For narrative work scarlet dragon is more than enough. People have been making movies with film cameras limited to 48fps or 60fps for decades. Scarlet Dragon is the closest thing to S35 cameras you can find. Epic Dragon is overkill for most people apart from those who shoot spiderman 6 or do nike commercials, and I guess in this case we can rent anything. Wolski used epic mx for Exodus and he said that he didn't need more Ks (the thread here about Exodus was funny, it looked like it was shot on Dragon in the title of the thread, and there was these comments about how sharp and crazy Dragon was, that's the proof that it's a bit hard to tell the difference at the end), Gone Girl is a 5K movie in 24fps, etc. Scarlet Dragon is the perfect camera, price wise and technical wise for indie. I'm not sure that pushing people to spend even more money than they own for some functionnality they don't necessarily need will help them. I would personally go the scarlet dragon route as I'm sure this new upgrade will be about more useful stuffs than just Ks or HFR. The extra money into a better body with crazy connectivity and so on would be a better investment. I'm glad Red made the scarlet and that they don't let it down. Thanx a lot for that.
 
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I spoke to a Red employee several months ago and asked if the RR-X will be compatable with the new sensor. He said theres a good chance it'll work with the new sensor. For the price it's at I sure hope it does. $6750 is alot to invest in a proprietary card for any DIT. Hopefully it'll work, I bet these Weapon files are juicy just as CUDA catches up with 6K it's a whole new ball game for 7k-8k.

If you are new to Red be sure to save over $5000 a year if you plan to be up to speed with updates. If you don't save the $5000 a year you will be one of the complainers. Expect updates every 2 years.

I would be on my way to Dragon but I sold my Scarlet long time ago cause I bought some killer glass. Luckily hi end cinema glass doesn't get revised every 2 years ;)

I seriously can't wait to play with these files they will be insane.

Could this be the camera we've been dreaming off since the announcements in 2008 that Red made paving the future of digital cinema.

My lenses are finally paid hopefully I can pick up Dragon for a decent price or even BT Epic MX.

More Red cameras in the wild is great news for all of us.
 
Cosmo D said:
Wolski used epic mx for Exodus and he said that he didn't need more Ks (the thread here about Exodus was funny, it looked like it was shot on Dragon in the title of the thread, and there was these comments about how sharp and crazy Dragon was, that's the proof that it's a bit hard to tell the difference at the end)...
Click to expand...

I don't mean to throw this discussion off track but I saw Exodus and Night at the Museum: Secret of the Tomb on the same day, in that order. I thought Exodus looked GREAT but I was disappointed in the Dragon-ness of the image. I couldn't help thinking it should've looked even better for some reason.

While watching NATM, even though it was a different genre with a different aesthetic, etc., I remember thinking as I watched it that it looked better and more cinematic (if you can believe that) than Exodus to me and had that Dragon-ness I was expecting.

A few days later I found out Exodus was shot mostly on MX and that helped explain what I was seeing.

I'll admit there are some times when the images from the two are indistinguishable. But, I've found that over the course of an hourlong or more program consisting of various lighting environments, the overall look and feel is much more apparent.

Back on track, Gavin's point about getting more bang for your buck in upgrades with Epic is spot on. It's just not feasible for many, which is why the Scarlet exists in the first place. Not getting as much bang for the same amount of bucks is part of the compromise of spending less to play in the RED sandbox.
 
Jarred Land said:
I know.. I always forget. Seems like such a great idea and such a courtesy to our awesome customers that nobody else does , but it always goes down a weird path of never being good enough. I would at least like to think that most of you guys appreciate it.

At any rate.. I just need to remember that I need to just stop posting and go do something fun when I find myself apologizing for people's unreal expectations or when I start yelling at people. It worked for Jim and I can tell it will ultimately work for me.
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Of course there will be moaning. The problem is: you care! And god, we love you for that. If not we wouldn't have the upgrade options you're giving us.
If you would give a shit about your customers, you wouldn't do the upgrades and you wouldn't care about the comments.
So although this is tough on you, you could actually be happy about giving a damn ;)
It's not that common - and definitely not common for camera companies and their chiefs - C300 anyone? hehehe

If this forum wouldn't exist, you wouldn't be hearing the moaning, but you also wouldn't be hearing the cheers and you would miss grown-ups acting like kids
for days and weeks because they just got a glimpse under the christmas tree too early. All that because of a picture of a small corner of a camera none of us has touched yet.

But this is what makes family. You get both: the good and the bad ;)

And I'm sure: everyone here is damn grateful for the upgrade options you're offering. Even if it empties our pockets ;)
Something like these upgrades are still unheard of in the "real" world. And we know that.

I for one am proud and happy to be along for the ride. I feel so damn lucky to be able to play along with you all.
This company means more to me than I could ever imagine any company could, but that's because RED is not just a company.
It's part of my life now. I've made quite a few friends and "pen pals" through RED and reduser. I'm proud to be a REDneck!

And although I have no clue yet how to get the upgrades done in time, I'll certainly try.
 
I don't post on Reduser a lot, but wow I am glad I was able to snatch up a Battletested Dragon with Minimag Module. Best purchase ever. Come at me RED, i am excited and ready :)
 
Just for the record, I am definitely not one of those moaning, except maybe being pissy about the name. LOL

I am just as jazzed as the Dragon owners (well, i exaggerate) to see what's coming. So much so that I just booked my flight to NAB. :thumbup:
 
Can Scarlet MX users upgrade to Weapon and skip the Dragon Upgrade?

Or are you saying that it would be cheaper to pay 12.5k/22k and add the Weapon Upgrade?
 
I knew that! And by clouding the issues Jarred convinced me even more.. Remember, i was claiming "It's definitely a new body, Jarred is giving a like to every Facebk comments talking about a new camera", right after that, Jarred was giving a like to "every" comments on his statue to keep the mystery alive, but it was too late, i had saw it ;)
 
Will the current accessories and modules work with the new camera? side handle? current line of rear modules?
also will there be multi versions of the new camera? scarlet/epic style?
 
Cosmo D said:
You should not forget that people here are not all working in the same area. For narrative work scarlet dragon is more than enough. People have been making movies with film cameras limited to 48fps or 60fps for decades.
Click to expand...

It's true but because it's a premium camera people are more likely to use an Epic. I've rented out more than $10k in rentals in the last year because people wanted to "try out highspeed" on a project. I would disagree with "nothing competes with Scarlet-Dragon". Maybe on quality but on paper someone sees a GH4 4k and someone sees a Scarlet 5k they think "that's only one more k". Shooting 100fps 4k is something the GH4 decidedly can't do so it gives you a clear edge on the feature front over the 4k DSLRs (and go pros) of the world.

Most of our works is 24p but I also went to Costa Rica in November to shoot exclusively highspeed material. That single shoot nearly paid the difference of a Scarlet -> Dragon and I only was able to rent my camera to the production because it handled highspeed. They would have rented someone else's epic for that week otherwise.

The other important thing to keep in mind is accessories. Accessories cost the same. Media costs the same. Everything costs the same for Scarlet and Epic except the brain so this is how you should look at the price over 3 upgrades:

Scarlet MX -> Scarlet UpgradeV3:

Lens Mount: $600
Matte Box: $2,000
Rods and support gear (top plates ec): $1,500
Follow focus: $1,500
Tripod: $3,000
Batteries and battery plate: $2,000
Touchscreen: $1,500
Sidehandle: $900
Card Reader $300
REDMags: $2,500
SSD Module: $1,500

$10k upgrade to Dragon
?$10k? upgrade to Weapon
?$10k? upgrade to WeaponV2
-------------------------
Scarlet UpgradeV3 $47,300 over 3 upgrades. (All hypothetical obviously)


Now let's do the same thing but add in an Epic upgrade:


$47,300 (Scarlet MX -> Scarlet UpgradeV3)
+ Scarlet -> Epic Upgrade $10k
-------------------
$57,300

So all told you're looking at
$57,300 / 47,300 = 21% increased price but you get 3 Epics instead of 3 Scarlets. Epic is DEFINITELY worth 21% more than Scarlet. In fact if you take historical framerates:
12fps 6k vs 100fps 6k = 833% more performance for 21% increased price.
 
Currently:

512GB mini - $2,450 ($4.78 per GB)

240GB 1.8" - $1,450 ($6.04 per GB)

At that rate, a 240GB mini would cost around $1,150. $300 off a new 1.8" is a pretty good deal and I assume you could sell that on RU today if you wanted to.



As long as RED keeps that price difference in place going forward you SHOULD be able to sell all of your 1.8" media at the cost of the corresponding mini media and break even. Will there be an influx or 1.8" media on the market? Sure. There will also be an influx of MX cameras as people unload them to free up cash for Weapon. It's not like the rush of supply on the 1.8" won't be met with demand. Maybe not ALL of the demand, but it certainly won't be obsolete. It all comes down to...RED keeping the current price of 1.8" the same and getting a bit more off of the minis as we go down in storage.

Ultimately, if RED could shave a HAIR more off of the price between mini and 1.8" for the smaller mags this ceases to be an issue. The greater the price discrepancy, the more room you have to drop your asking price and get into mini mags faster.
 
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