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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Update

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Nick Fury said:
Two calls to Red, Irvine-both responders stated that the Color Science was being "worked on." YMMV

Thank you very much

fury
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Perhaps they have to reconcile the color science with the power source?
 
Bob Gundu said:
No deposit necessary. Just get on the list.
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Bob, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the $5K deposit he had on RED ONE back when the REDvolution started and "as long as there is no money tied up in the wait" - as it was with RED ONE - he is OK to wait...

:sifone: Peter
 
Ah ha.... makes sense!

Peter Majtan said:
Bob, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the $5K deposit he had on RED ONE back when the REDvolution started and "as long as there is no money tied up in the wait" - as it was with RED ONE - he is OK to wait...

:sifone: Peter
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Elsie N said:
Perhaps they have to reconcile the color science with the power source?
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Correct... both are interrelated. Black Points and Clipping points change when you turn the voltage levels. Individual color response changes with different voltage gains.. it is all connected.

We also have 2 OLPF's now remember, the new IR cut one plus and the existing recipe, which both have their own color science.

Graeme is on top of it though.. There isn't alot of exploration going on anymore, and the adjustments remaining are just slight modifications to get back to base as things swing each way from the hardware adjustments.
 
Jarred Land said:
We also have 2 OLPF's now remember, the new IR cut one plus and the existing recipe, which both have their own color science.
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Really curious about that new IR-OLPF and how it plays with UV/IR light sources and non-emitting sources. Also, curious if we'll still need to protect ourselves in that ND 1.8-3.0 realm. Dragon is pretty sensitive :)
 
Phil Holland said:
...Really curious about that new IR-OLPF...
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Me too. So far Red's OLPF has been famous for being soft. That has advantages but also disadvantages. Red footage needs often some sharpening in post, while Alexa footage mostly is sharp enough right from the start. Besides better IR protection, I'm pretty sure that the new OLPF will be considerably less soft.

Hans
 
Never take a dragon away from her mother unless she is good and ready. ;) Thanks for the update Jarred....no rush, current status of the EPIC is performing insanely well.
 
Jarred Land said:
Correct... both are interrelated. Black Points and Clipping points change when you turn the voltage levels. Individual color response changes with different voltage gains.. it is all connected.

We also have 2 OLPF's now remember, the new IR cut one plus and the existing recipe, which both have their own color science.

Graeme is on top of it though.. There isn't alot of exploration going on anymore, and the adjustments remaining are just slight modifications to get back to base as things swing each way from the hardware adjustments.
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Will ISO settings affect voltage levels on the Dragon? As I understand it, some cameras increase voltage to the sensor in order to maximize low light capabilities? It doesn't seem that the Epic does this....
 
Wes Howell said:
Will ISO settings affect voltage levels on the Dragon? As I understand it, some cameras increase voltage to the sensor in order to maximize low light capabilities? It doesn't seem that the Epic does this....
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Almost definitely not...

My understanding of what you are referring to is that many manufacturers design their cameras in such a way that DR and noise is primarily limited by the ADC, not by the photosites, so different gain is applied to the analog amplifiers so that the limited ADC can use different portions of the sensor's DR but never all its range at once. Manufacturers such as Canon and Sony do this, but manufacturers such as Arri, Blackmagic, and RED seem to maximize DR of the system by designing their systems with ADC's that are not so DR limited and so ostensibly the whole sensor range is captured at once. Arri and BM use dual gain and dual ADC to avoid this ADC limitation, and RED may just have an optimized ADC, which isn't to say ADC is not still the limiting factor, but it may be a small enough limitation that allowing adjustable analog gain would not add much adjustable sensitivity range to the system. I believe I recall RED reps saying in the past that MX is already designed with fixed gain optimized for the lowest read noise, so it seems no further low light sensitivity would likely be gained through adjustable gain levels. We don't know so much about Dragon yet though :)

It makes me wonder since Canon and Sony have cameras with such great low light range, what if they could design them not to be limited by their ADCs and you could essentially use the full range of the sensor so the shadow detail available at ISO20,000 and the highlight detail of ISO800 was all available at once. Think about how much range and sensitivity that sensor has before its clipped by the ADC. No matter what analog gain is applied to the sensor voltages, the well capacity and DR of the photosites themselves are essentially constant, and changing ISO setting in camera (on canon/sony) isn't giving you more signal, its just compensating for the limitations of the ADC.

Hopefully Dragon will be that sensor that gives you all that range that the sensor sees in one exposure. It would be interesting when dragon is released to compare its images it to a multi-ISO "HDR" image from canon/sony and see which sensor actually has more range and see how canon/sony could have done with better ADCs.
 
Peter Majtan said:
Bob, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the $5K deposit he had on RED ONE back when the REDvolution started and "as long as there is no money tied up in the wait" - as it was with RED ONE - he is OK to wait...

:sifone: Peter
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He's more probably referring to the $5K deposit we had on the epic-x.

As to the history: The original Red1 deposit back in 2006 was only $1000 - Red had never built a camera and we all knew that we were at least six months if not much more before delivery, and really there weren't even any implied promises about delivery.

The Epic-X deposit was a little different in that by then Red had delivered thousands of cameras and I think most of us assumed that the upgrade/sidegrade deposit would indicate that the camera was essentially fully developed and we were only a month or so away from the beginning of shipments and even if we added a Red reverse lombardi time factor it would only be a couple months. Also $1000 doesn't buy a lot in the pro video market so most of us weren't too worried about having $1000 tied up for quite a while. $5000 tied up for a year was a little frustrating because it could have bought an interim low end camera (like maybe a 5DMKII which was very hot at the time); a nice editing computer; wireless audio system; paying rent or mortgages during the worst economic crises of our time; - or whatever - that could have been used during that year or so rather than being tied up in Red's bank account.
 
Sounds like you're getting close. I'll be happy to take a "Dragon-M" sensor. ;-)

Jarred Land said:
Correct... both are interrelated. Black Points and Clipping points change when you turn the voltage levels. Individual color response changes with different voltage gains.. it is all connected.

We also have 2 OLPF's now remember, the new IR cut one plus and the existing recipe, which both have their own color science.

Graeme is on top of it though.. There isn't alot of exploration going on anymore, and the adjustments remaining are just slight modifications to get back to base as things swing each way from the hardware adjustments.
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Jarred, I'd really like to know the power consumption of the Dragon brains VS MX...can you share that with us?

What will be the savings in watts? 20%? 30%? 50%?

Thanks!
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Jarred, I'd really like to know the power consumption of the Dragon brains VS MX...can you share that with us?

What will be the savings in watts? 20%? 30%? 50%?

Thanks!
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The Dragon Sensor uses less power than the previous MX sensor, but remember the new Dragon ASICs use a bit more so its probably going to be pretty close to neutral when the dust settles.
 
Jarred Land said:
It doesn't.... that begins tomorrow :)
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Wait, so if we do the Epic-X upgrade instead of the Dragon upgrade, we will get the Epic-X immediately and won't have to wait until July for the Dragon upgrade? If these has been mentioned all ready, I apologize (it's hard to cycle through 20 pages of posts).
 
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