Dragon Update

[Bob Gundu]

Certainly not the original Sony lenses... I'll of course check them out personally before buying any. I think there are some to be seen in LA at either Band Pro or Abel...

Yes please let us know about the image circle on them.

 

[Eric Haase]

If you know us, you know how hard it is to keep these Dragons on a leash and not let them out into the wild until they are perfect.

Last night at the Newport Beach FIlm Festival we premiered a feature I shot on Epics in Puerto Rico. I had some low light campfire scenes (noiseless) and a bunch of HDRx work in the jungle canopy and it looked fantastic on the big screen. Take your time on Dragon. The Epics we have now are already awesome!

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Off the top of my head this fine warm summer evening:

- Supersampling.
- Re-framing, cropping, and level horizon flexibility.
- Expanded and improved performance on every lens.
- Shooting higher quality/higher resolving "wides".
- VFX shoots, more resolution on tough keying situations.
- VFX element shoots.
- Timelapse
- Printing and extracting stills from motion.

4K digital projection and displays with a proper delivery format can see a lot. It's going to help having more going into this battle.

As per reframing: We are edging the capabilities of most lenses now - more pixels won't help see something your lenses failed to - this let alone the human limitations of your focus-pullers, blur from moving objects and characters, etc.

Supersampling: I wonder if more supersampling with 6K will be visibly different from 5K, even at a very close seating distance, in terms of what a human could see, regardless of projection resolution. Wides look as sharp as they can now - if you zoom in, you more often see lens imperfections, not pixels, at 5K, using really great lenses at f5.6, unfiltered.

Expanded and improved performance on every lens - not sure how 6K would give you this. A wider fields of view maybe, and only on FF SLR glass.

As per 4K digital projection - I saw Skyfall in 4K, looked great, was shot in 2K. The thing is, human eyes, again, are what they are, and I have better than 20/20 vision.

VFX - we've had zero problems with 5K epic footage, I mean zero. Rolling shutter sometimes (but rarely)

Stills from motion: No issue there now, at 5K either - again, even the sharpest glass rarely resolves more than a true 5K, even if you had a 20K sensor, it would have the same information because lenses only go so far. If you crop too much you get perspective convergence weirdness and other issues, so you don;t want to crop too much. Unless you are making wall-sized prints, 5K is more than enough. I suppose 6K might be a bit better here (not even sure) but certainly 6K is enough, and I can quit buying cameras after Dragon - I'll be done.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I respectfully disagree. While it is true that you do not need more to watch clips on YouTube or on the telly, but that doesn't mean you can not benefit significantly from 6k or 8k on a large screen. The thruth is that 6k acquisition is bare minimum for clean 4k output. Large screen productions can certainly benefit from larger pixel count.

Remember, this is Beyer sensor and Nyquist frequency for red and blue channels are just 1250 lp per picture width and about 650 line pairs per picture width.
Even my old eyes can resolve more at any reasonable viewing angle. Human eye acuity is quite high and it will be a while before digital sensors can match it.

Anyway, here are some 8k samples: http://4k.com.au/8k/ They make very clean downsample to 4k. I will take more any time

5K Epic truly resolves about 82% - so a healthy 4K. Larger screens mean nothing at all - a 24 inch screen close to your face is the same as a 50 foot screen far away - it's all about field of view you vision only has so many "pixels" edge to edge. "True 4K" which is exactly what a 5K Epic is - you just can't see more at a reasonable movie viewing distance/field of view you could not watch a 50 foot screen from 6 inches away, you would miss the action and get a sore neck.

Don't get me wrong - I am excited about Dragon, but only in terms of better color, better dynamic range (although over 16.5 is essentially useless, because I've yet to run into any real world scene that had more than that) and more sensitivity (dubiously useful, as I often reach for NDs now, even at night). More resolution we don;t need, don;t want, is an annoyance we have to put up with more than a truly useful feature. 5K was already just past enough.

 

[Les Dittert]

If 5K Epic shoots 'true 4K' , well then I guess I am shooting 'even truer 4K' ....
Sometimes you don't know what you are missing until you see it. Try shooting the same shot with the Epic and then a Nikon 800e in still RAW mode. Same glass. Resize both to 4096.
Zoom on in and compare.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I agree, I don't feel like "ahh, 6K. Now we can finally get some real 4K images" I think the current Epic does really nice 4K. I too am interested in better color, noise, DR etc. but the extra resolution will come in nice for pulling stills, true DSMC. Will the 4K look better from 6K than is does from 5K? Perhaps in certain shots, particularly when fine patterns, moire, and such are an issue but at these resolutions optics play a big role as does focus etc. personally I might not always elect to shoot in 6K but I like knowing its there. I think in the future as storage gets cheaper, drives and CPUs get faster etc. we won't need to think twice about shooting 6K.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I suppose 6K might be a bit better here (not even sure) but certainly 6K is enough, and I can quit buying cameras after Dragon - I'll be done.

Interesting statement. I wonder when we will get to this point that the cameras are "done". Like all tech there is a bell type curve where the products get so good that the advance start to come much slower and the consumer finds the need to upgrade far less often. Will Dragon be that? I think for some the answer may be yes. It will satisfy many for a long time. We used to upgrade computers every year or even more, now it's every few years. I am curious what people wish list will be beyond Dragon, obviously for me #1 will be more FPS. What do others still want?

 

[Brian Merlen]

I like the higher frames tho on the Scarlet Dragon, so even if one isn't eyeing for more resolution, more fps is great! No cut offs like with other offerings so you can let the takes roll as needed instead of burst shots...

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If 5K Epic shoots 'true 4K' , well then I guess I am shooting 'even truer 4K' ....
Sometimes you don't know what you are missing until you see it. Try shooting the same shot with the Epic and then a Nikon 800e in still RAW mode. Same glass. Resize both to 4096.
Zoom on in and compare.

But that's my point. In practical terms, I am not zooming into a still image to 1:1 pixels, shot at 1/1000th of a second. It doesn't matter what that would look like - I have no reason to care. All that matters is how things look to viewers of my motion images . I don't mind spending money on useful technology, but I avoid buying into useless "toy" and "bragging rights" features which have no effect on what matters to the end result.

So far we have had no - zero - nada - 4K finish requests, so far that market does not exist and may never in any large quantity, much like 3D basically is tiny compared to 2D. And if we had we probably, like Skyfall, could have shot them at 2K, let alone 5K, and released then on Imax, and... Nobody complained about Skyfall looking low res, and it made a zillion dollars.

 

[Ken Robings]

Engineers have been working on portable electronic cameras since the 70's (RCA TK-76). Thirty years ago I worked with CBS on Ikegami's EC-35 (Electronic Cinematography) It was NTSC, interchangeable prime lenses, Canon cinema style zoom, very "film like" for the day, and very expensive. Did everybody pat themselves on the back and go home? No, everybody went back to work. It is never going to end, no matter the limitations of the human eye. Red (and Sony and Canon etc.) will keep pushing the limit.
Ken Robings
digitaloptik.net

 

[Elan Gunos]

Unless something better comes along, it won't stop until everyone can shoot IMAX on their phones, and wirelessly record, edit and post their videos and watch it on their 25k foldable oled screens.

 

[Mark Andersen]

All true. But the tech curve always levels out, certainly at different rates for different industries. Right now our industry's digital tech is sky rocketing upward but it the ascent rate will eventually slow down.

 

[Phil Holland]

I suppose 6K might be a bit better here (not even sure) but certainly 6K is enough, and I can quit buying cameras after Dragon - I'll be done.

Don't get me wrong - I am excited about Dragon, but only in terms of better color, better dynamic range (although over 16.5 is essentially useless, because I've yet to run into any real world scene that had more than that) and more sensitivity (dubiously useful, as I often reach for NDs now, even at night).

We're certainly talking about individual wants, needs, and desires. One mans treasure is another mans burden perhaps. Everybody is entitled to their own thoughts on these things. It certainly sounds like 6K isn't a major selling point for you.

I'm equally excited about more DR, color, sensitive, etc... The way I look at new tools is how I can utilize them and what they can do for me from both a creative and technical standpoint. This is why 6K is appealing to me. I see possibilities. I fully intend on shooting at Dragon 5K a great deal myself and just having that extra 6K look around area is a bonus to me.

With the new sensor Red is solving and providing something that it's competitors are not doing. 5K within a S35 frame size. It's actually something folks around this town asked for or at least desired for a while.

6K will be there when you want or need it. The reason I mention wides, and I guess I should point out ultra wides, is that they are often not the "sharpest tools in the shed" on most lens sets. There's also some image projection limitations. Some may find shooting via a longer focal lengths via 6K or even as wide as those focal lengths at 6K and scaling down to 4K could provide a higher quality image resolving more perceptual detail.

On glass, I've seen a whole lot of glass projected and used a healthy amount of nearly everything out there. Until we are getting into sub 3 micron pixel sizes I think we have a bit of room on resolving, sensors, and modern glass. In fact, there are now new lenses coming to the market that are producing higher numbers than ever.

For me, I also look at everybody else that I know who shoots and works on Red material. That provides an interesting perspective into individual's needs. I do see a lot of cropping and re-framing in post. Plus others do want that larger sensor size. Again, only possibilities.

Dragon represents interesting formats and features to me. It's essentially built as a true film alternative from that perspective. All of this is why I'm upgrading.

 

[Clint Childers]

Is it possible to implement a setting that uses the 6k sensor area but
Records a super sampled 4k resolution in camera?

That way we have the best of both worlds, a true 100% 4k image but
Without all the extra data overhead of 6k.

Sony does it, I'd love to see Red implement a feature like that.
Next question is why hasn't it already been done, if it is possible
in camera?

 

[Timur Civan]

Is it possible to implement a setting that uses the 6k sensor area but
Records a super sampled 4k resolution in camera?

That way we have the best of both worlds, a true 100% 4k image but
Without all the extra data overhead of 6k.

Sony does it, I'd love to see Red implement a feature like that.
Next question is why hasn't it already been done, if it is possible
in camera?

Thats essentially what an F65 does.

But it would be SUPER cool if the future red cameras could do that. 444 4K RAW, thats PIN sharp @ 16bit depth.... Oh droool....

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

Lets dream a little more and hope it comes to the pre dragon Epic's and Scarlets. 5K put in the 4k container would be amazing, and give alot of life to those cameras as work horses in the UHD world... One can dream, but advised to not hold breath... ha. What would it be called 4kSS. The Ss for super sampled?

Thats essentially what an F65 does.

But it would be SUPER cool if the future red cameras could do that. 444 4K RAW, thats PIN sharp @ 16bit depth.... Oh droool....

 

[Sergio Perez]

Lets dream a little more and hope it comes to the pre dragon Epic's and Scarlets. 5K put in the 4k container would be amazing, and give alot of life to those cameras as work horses in the UHD world... One can dream, but advised to not hold breath... ha

Clint, Timur and Ryan, a +100000000 to your suggestion. That would be brilliant.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Is it possible to implement a setting that uses the 6k sensor area but
Records a super sampled 4k resolution in camera?

That way we have the best of both worlds, a true 100% 4k image but
Without all the extra data overhead of 6k.

Sony does it, I'd love to see Red implement a feature like that.
Next question is why hasn't it already been done, if it is possible
in camera?

I did some kind of weird test with the monochrome epic, looking at spatial resolution decreasing based on increasing wavelet compression. Basically by increasing the compression ratio on the 5k mode you get 4k and down to 3k spatial resolution. RED's approach with doing this with wavelets is I think a lot better then doing this with sampling. Another nice thing about RED's approach is it gives you the "ISO"/light of all the sensors, and appears to remove high frequency noise. My guess is this approach that is working on the monochrome will be expanded/extend with the new dragon color science. So basically RED will allow you to shoot at all times at "6k", but if all you really just want 4k you just increase the compression ratio, which gives you in effect the 4k DI resolution(with the appropriate 4k file sizes). I think this approach to having small "4k" files sizes while shooting still at "6K' is really cool, in that it gives you almost all the advantages of shooting at 6k yet gives you 4k file sizes(if your end product is a 4k DI or even smaller file size if all you need is 2k).

[ edit ... also RED's approach removes spatial aliasing in the form of a Moiré patterns, while sampling has a ton of aliasing issues]

 

[Will Keir]

and Will.

Hopefully I can grab Brook Evin and Phil one of these days soon with a van full of glass so they can put together some sort of master Dragon-Lens-matrix.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

Id LOVE to have the 5K FOV with 2K or 3k etc files option if it was available. And 6K>3K say
Not a choice for every shoot but it would be amazing to have that choice!