Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[David Mullen ASC]

The truth is in between -- there are some DP's who have no problem endorsing a single brand publicly online and others who don't like to express such opinions in print. Many DP's are not much for posting opinions online in fact.

For one thing, we cinematographers have to work in harmony with various manufacturers and other facilities over our careers, and this is still a small enough industry that there is a human face or faces connected with each of these vendors, whether at Red, Sony, ARRI, etc. So some of the reticence to criticize is simply good manners and some of it comes from a sense of fairness, we know everyone is trying in their own way to make a good product but not everyone shares the same priorities.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The truth is in between -- there are some DP's who have no problem endorsing a single brand publicly online and others who don't like to express such opinions in print. Many DP's are not much for posting opinions online in fact.

For one thing, we cinematographers have to work in harmony with various manufacturers and other facilities over our careers, and this is still a small enough industry that there is a human face or faces connected with each of these vendors, whether at Red, Sony, ARRI, etc. So some of the reticence to criticize is simply good manners and some of it comes from a sense of fairness, we know everyone is trying in their own way to make a good product but not everyone shares the same priorities.

Listen to David...

 

[Nook Kim]

This whole thread is why I still come here and see what's happening. People like Bruce Allen, Matt Ryan, Robert Ruffo New, and some others keep pushing Red to get better for themselves as users, but it really also helps Red to get better. This thread is a great example of that. Right minded people keep pushing for better and the company listens..

I've been using Red since the beginning and the whole concept of the company has been a huge impact of my professional life. However, I have no interest to come here to advertise how good Red is. That is not helping Red. Not at all.

I understand how this negative talks on Red may affect someone's life as Red could be paying his/her bills, but pretending like Dragon is the perfect camera won't help them in the long run.

I seriously like how much Red has improved their sensor in reproducing color, but I really wish JJ didn't come out and published that latitude chart or said something like "iso 2000 is new iso 800". Then nobody would've complained about those.

Just my two cents from Korea.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

thank you.

And I wanted to make something clear.. I don't want people to think we only care about the high-end, big-budget productions.

Most of our customers are the indy filmmakers, and when I just pointed to the cinematographers that I respect the most there isn't a budget bracket that they all fit in. Cinematography isn't about how many lighting and grip trucks you can afford or how big your dolly is.

We spend the most time with cinematographers that I would consider on the "indy" side, and hence we get the most feedback from them. Some of the best images ever shot on our camera have been "free" shots. I think Cinematography evolves the most from Independent films as the D.P usually has alot more control and freedom and usually has a bit more room to push the envelope and experiment and take risks.

We of course love the fact that the big guys who have the choice of anything they want use use our cameras to shoot the biggest films., but that goes back to making the best image. Our job is to give you the best camera possible that takes the best image possible, and your guys job is to take that camera and shoot the best films you possibly can, no matter what the budget is.

Getting the BEST image possible is where the OLPF options come in.. because just like lenses and film and pretty much everything else that matters there isn't one thing that can do everything the absolute best. Some people shoot primes some people shoot zooms. One gives you the best image possible, the other gives you flexibility. You will get the best image possible by choosing the right combination that fits the job. Some people may complain about needing to even think about that on the OLPF level... but some people appreciate it immensely. The good thing is that the choice is yours.

Super like! Thanks Jarred.

 

[Andrew Huse]

I plan on upgrading to Dragon closer to the end of the year. With all the feedback from dragon users and Red's engineers improving the science every day, I am confident it will be worth it. Thanks everyone for the good discussion here.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

i blame RED on this one.People want more because they know RED Digital Cinema listening them.its not ARRI/SONY Last time i had chat with ASC member he was so tired of seeing ARRI in ASC clubhouse all the time.They were like living in there.Do you think Arri gives a shit about problems reported on message boards?
Even there is no reply from Jarred or Jannard on this thread believe me they are reading all these negative and positive comments about Dragon.Thats why i love RED...

Actually Arri listens very carefully to what DPs say, as Red Do. I can confirm that personally. Some of the other brands maybe less so.

 

[Ergin Ozturk]

The only bummer with the grade was the release build of Resolve does not support Dragoncolor or maybe we couldn't find it?

davinci resolve supports Dragoncolor. please check the davinci updates.

 

[Jarred Land]

guys im just gonna keep deleting all the bullshit... so don't waste your time writing it. stop attacking each other and keep on track.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Hey Jarred,

Does RED have about $12K-$13K worth of work for me to do (remotely) in exchange for the Scarlet Dragon upgrade + some walkin' around money?

I'm talented at things.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

Really looking forward to some details/clarity on the modular OLPF. Mainly cost.

Again, 9500 was a lot of some of us, so another costly upgrade to really help sell the camera to productions has some of us a little nervous. I'm committed to the camera, it's just spending more to get to where i thought I'd be with Dragon is a little nervousness inducing.

Fingers crossed!

 

[Phil Holland]

Really looking forward to some details/clarity on the modular OLPF. Mainly cost.

Until final R&D work is done and cost assessment for the production model exists in terms of parts and labor it's tough to give a number. When Red is closer to all of that they'll give us that info. While they could give us a "wheelhouse" it's best to wait until the Module/Kit are closer to shipping as things can change. Sometimes for better or worse when it comes to price. I think the Motion Mount actually ended up cheaper than the previous expected cost hinted at here on RU.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

Until final R&D work is done and cost assessment for the production model exists in terms of parts and labor it's tough to give a number. When Red is closer to all of that they'll give us that info. While they could give us a "wheelhouse" it's best to wait until the Module/Kit are closer to shipping as things can change. Sometimes for better or worse when it comes to price. I think the Motion Mount actually ended up cheaper than the previous expected cost hinted at here on RU.

I would CERTAINLY hope the cost on this kit is kept very low, or a discount is offered to existing dragon owners. Again, fingers crossed, and such.

 

[paul schefz]

wish i could see phil's raw files from phil's test....
i don't like how the red veins in phil's eyes are turning grey and how the dark area under the eye almost seems to get a greenish tint.....the "removing the red noise filter" does not seem to be working ok...yet? either way, i guess a different olpf would take care of the red noise anyway?

i still see grain/noise/texture that i think just isn't there in my MX files at low iso....but this is of course hard to tell from a video file...raw would be better....
5:1 on dragon is useless to me because i pretty much never shoot at less then 50fps which puts me at 9:1? on my epic MX i almost never shoot at higher compression then 5:1...even at 6:1 the noise picks up noticeably....so maybe that is the noise/grain/texture i am seeing with most dragon files (all higher compression then 5:1) i could get my hands on?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I can accept that criticism on the rollout of the new OLPF... and that is not Phil's fault by any stretch, it's not his job. People can still have their " 2000 is the new 800 " with the old OLPF if they want it and if thats how they rated it and raved about it with the original Dragons that had the older OLPF. The sensor is the same... its just the glass ahead of it. We probably should start calling it the Low Light OLPF though as the new / old thing is going to get confusing when there is more than one other option available.

DEB isn't as simple as a Chroma noise reduction like you are comparing it to, There is a fair amount of rather complicated color balancing happening in there in the RAW space that goes way deeper than any RGB/Chroma noise reduction can accomplish. It's a blend of a bunch of things, which is why it has taken Graeme so long to get right, and I am sure it will get better over time. That is why it is an optional switch.

Having shot a TON with the "old" OLPF - and the "new" OLPF - I'd take the "new" OLPF pretty much 95% of the time. And honestly ... for the 5% of time I'd choose the "old" OLPF - I'd most likely be better served with a slower shutter speed - but slower shutter speeds scare people more than they should and that's a topic for another thread.

We have a new generation obsessed with the fantasy of making movies without light - because sadly - they don't understand that it's ALL about the light. And I believe the main reason they feel this way is that they have ZERO clue HOW to light anything bacause they are so excited to "grab a camera" and look at the monitor do the "WYSIWYG - Look at how amazing my shot is - I'm making a Movie" thing.

THE BEST LOOKING MOVIES IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD were shot without a video tap or a histogram or goal posts. Simply because ... the people that shot them ... knew how to light, expose and compose. And they took MUCH bigger risks making their choices - based on knowledge and experience - NOT a monitor.

I just started testing DEB and still forming opinions - but - for sure - as an OPTION is the right choice IMO.

And SWAPPABLE OLPFs is FANTASTIC. Let the CML poster kids scream all they want - you just watch - all the other camera companies will follow.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

We have a new generation obsessed with the fantasy of making movies without light - because sadly - they don't understand that it's ALL about the light.

I just started testing DEB and still forming opinions - but - for sure - as an OPTION is the right choice IMO.

And SWAPPABLE OLPFs is FANTASTIC. Let the CML poster kids scream all they want - you just watch - all the other camera companies will follow.

My thoughts exactly.
Thanks, Mark.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Right on Mark L. Pederson.

 

[paul schefz]

We have a new generation obsessed with the fantasy of making movies without light - because sadly - they don't understand that it's ALL about the light. And I believe the main reason they feel this way is that they have ZERO clue HOW to light anything bacause they are so excited to "grab a camera" and look at the monitor do the "WYSIWYG - Look at how amazing my shot is - I'm making a Movie" thing.

THE BEST LOOKING MOVIES IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD were shot without a video tap or a histogram or goal posts. Simply because ... the people that shot them ... knew how to light, expose and compose. And they took MUCH bigger risks making their choices - based on knowledge and experience - NOT a monitor.
/QUOTE]

i wonder what % of all red cameras out there are used for movies and what % for commercial production....and either way you are right, it's all about the light....and nowadays it is more and more about available light and how to mix it....and that is where iso 2000 comes in very handy....getting more shots per day because you don't have to drag grip around is a reality....being able to use smaller lights is a necessity....that's just that....like it or not....
this has nothing at all to do with goal posts or monitors.....

the sad thing is that most movies you are referring to probably would not be produced today anymore, but that is a different story....but i think that kubrick probably would have preferred to just be able to crank the iso a notch or 2 instead of having to have lens designed to get a shot....

 

[Chris Henze]

Something that I find amazing is that when the OLPF became an issue for some, somehow the solution is just a bolt in piece. Pretty much like the possibility of changing it was considered right from the design phase and the implementation reserved for when it was needed. I thought the same thing when after hearing for years people complaining about the fan noise(It was really difficult for the long take Doc guys, me included.), RED comes out with the top fan that just, bolted in. The connections were there already there and hidden underneath a cover, BAM, fan noise problems greatly reduced. Wow.

What a thoughtfully engineered piece of equipment. Including the fact that the sensor swap is even possible. That's another thing that blows me away. What other things lie beneath covers I don't even know are there?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

DEB, ADD, OLPF switching.

In my ears and views, they are about giving me the option to make the same cam look different, for different situations.

It's hard to argue with Mark about the "it's all about the lights" statement.
Even when shooting available lights, it is.
And I'd love to join a conversation about shutterspeeds... But I think those wouldn't and shouldn't be directly connect it to an ISO/GAIN/Aperture discussion.
They're not "fixes" in my eyes, but options.

I really loved the prototype I got to test. Like insanely.
I was very happy with old OLPF and I am now getting to know the new. And dig it.
Haven't been posting too much on it, as my cam went for extended rent, once I had it, and it's been summer.
Haven't really shot and tested it enough to say anything sensible, besides: I like it.

But I think RED with Dragon, really figured out what many have thought:

An image is not "in the numbers" (which I think I stated once I tried the Dragon), but in it's feel.
Numbers, tests and breakdowns are only good. I stand by that.
They are tools to figure out how to make things better with a particular lens or camera or tool of choice.
And if you have issues, the numbers will likely tell you why, or can at least be a good place to start to look.

But they really tell you very little about: What kind of images can you make with this camera.
Using the Dragon (or any other camera for that sake) for what they are worth, will.

To make the filmstock analogy:
It is how far you can get, when you use them well, and how limiting they are when you use them well, which to me is the real question.
And in THAT lays the difference between the top cameras these days.

To me the organic feel and lovely colors is what makes the Dragon.
And the rest of the new "extras" (like resolution and better compression) are just bonuses.
Getting extra options like ADD/DEB and maybe the option to swap the OLPF... are even more options.

But to me the extras would not have made me swap the Epic for a Dragon.
The Dragon did.

 

[David Battistella]

We have a new generation obsessed with the fantasy of making movies without light - because sadly - they don't understand that it's ALL about the light. And I believe the main reason they feel this way is that they have ZERO clue HOW to light anything bacause they are so excited to "grab a camera" and look at the monitor do the "WYSIWYG - Look at how amazing my shot is - I'm making a Movie" thing.

sometimes I like being an old fart and have a chuckle at these things. Just speaking with a friend about this the other day.

His first lesson to some students he teaches is beautiful. He points out where the sensor is the tells his students, "Everything that happens 1mm in front of this thing has never changed since the beginning of photography, light, emotion, composition, the story you want to tell." Then he tells them everything that happens from that 1mm in front of the sensor/film plane backward has and always will constantly change and evolve.

He stresses that the technology and image capture will change but the focus needs to be on the craft, because those principles and the foundation to any image making are far more important.

i was shaking my head realizing that I was about to buy an HVX 200 after owning that other revolutionary DVX100a. I held out for RED.

Just seven years later, everything I capture is about 17times larger than that frame and I have pulled stills that have been on display on the sides of buildings.

Yet someone still finds a reason to complain. So if people wonder why appreciate my dragon camera so much, well, you get the point, not long ago, the world was a very different place.

Battistella