Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no ..

[Elsie N]

As I already said, this thread is NOT about Sony vs Red. I repeat, Sony never claimed F65 to be an 8K camera. On the other hand Red does claim Dragon is able to produce 6k images the same way the original Red One was marketed as a 4k camera. And that is just not true. I can just imagine what would happen, if ARRI started claiming, that Alexa is a 3K camera…
Let's just agree, that right now there is no 6k camera other than film

First of all it is NOT an 8K Bayer sensor. Period. It's not even full 6K. So you answered the question incorrectly. I'm sorry if I come across as a dick here, but these are the facts.

And yes, they do market it as an 8K camera. I have brochures and pamphlets to prove that. Or just look at the F65 product page: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-h...bsccms-assets-show-highend-F65.shtml#/f65t1_1

EDIT> It seems now they have updated this to address their pixel counting method. It's very vague, but they talk of pixel counts and zig-zag. And no, the sensor is not 20MP. That number is derived after their zig-zag counting.

They talk about densities, but don't come clean about anything. They use a bunch of obfuscated mumbo-jumbo and graphics that don't represent anything to try and communicate something that just isn't.

The unfortunate truth is that Sony's marketing is full of shit. Always has been, probably always will be. Their gaming division is the worst and has been since the inception of the PlayStation. It seems the same ethics, or lack thereof, have migrated over to their CE and Pro Cinema divisions over the past 6~8 years.



RED does an OK job here. They advertise it as a 6K camera because it is indeed a 6K image sensor. They are up front about Bayer CFA resolution and efficiencies and that nominal measurements will be lower. They are more up front about this than any other camera maker I know. Arri doesn't spell this out. Neither does Sony, nor Canon. This is no different than any DSLR manufacturer, Canon, Nikon, Sony or any other talking MegaPixel numbers. Those are all Bayer CFA at the moment with much lower measured resolutions too. I'll put up a Dragon against an F65 any day when it comes to shooting resolution charts or attempting to measure resolution or detail in an image.

Anyway, I've said my piece about the F65, I'm done.

I think what a lot of newbies (members of Reduser for say, the last couple of years) don't realize is that much of the FUD on Reduser comes from people from this later batch... some with less than a year experience with Reduser.

When folks like Jeff, Phil, John Marchant, David Battistella, and others post that someone is making an unproven statement, listen to them. They have been here since the beginning or almost the beginning, and have owned and shot every camera model RED has made, successfully. There have always been FUDDERS on REDuser. And there have always been a chorus that jumps behind the FUDDERS.

My choice has been to follow the science that the people I mentioned above provide.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I think what a lot of newbies (members of Reduser for say, the last couple of years) don't realize is that much of the FUD on Reduser comes from people from this later batch... some with less than a year experience with Reduser.

When folks like Jeff, Phil, John Marchant, David Battistella, and others post that someone is making an unproven statement, listen to them. They have been here since the beginning or almost the beginning, and have owned and shot every camera model RED has made, successfully. There have always been FUDDERS on REDuser. And there have always been a chorus that jumps behind the FUDDERS.

My choice has been to follow the science that the people I mentioned above provide.

RE: your previous post, while I look for and appreciate Jeff Kilgroe's posts probably more than any other Reduser, to suggest (at least by proximity in your post) that Jake is a FUDDER I think is poor form. People like Jake and Mike Most that aren't invested in RED cameras - because they are post professionals that work with footage from a lot of different cameras, provide a very useful perspective.

Both Sony and Red engage in technical and marketing "puffery". IIRC RED's early marketing pieces touted "No pixel shifting spoken here" (pixel shifting in a 3 chip camera referred to the offsetting the green chip so it's pixels were in between those of the other chips and provided up to a 40% increase in resolution) while failing to talk about the vagaries of its use of Bayer pattern which tends to REDUCE actual resolution by about 20% as well as color issues due to the interpolation and uncertainty of the color data.

If we are going to talk comparisons, it probably makes more sense to consider the F55, the Alexa, Blackmagic, Canon and Nikon, (and even GoPro) as these are the cameras that are actually selling in the market. I'm pretty sure that Sony would just as soon forget the F65 phase as it didn't sell that well and most of the customers were unhappy with its price to value ratio and ROI - to the point where Sony made some very large financial rebates.

I doubt if there is anything that camera makers can do to unseat Arri in the 1080 television series market in the next year or two. But I hope RED can do something to make Dragon the overwhelmingly clear choice for movie people that can and want to work with higher resolutions, as we all thought it would be when it was first promoted.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

I think what a lot of newbies (members of Reduser for say, the last couple of years) don't realize is that much of the FUD on Reduser comes from people from this later batch... some with less than a year experience with Reduser.

Less paranoia please.

 

[Luke Neumann]

To chime in, resolution might not matter to some but it does to me. I do quite a bit of exclusive stock video work and being able to rise above the current flood of 4K content hitting stock sites is very important to me.

It might not be the monumental upgrade that R1>Epic was but it's still (on paper at least) the best camera for the price. It's on the cutting edge and sometimes it pays to be there with it, regardless of whether it performs as they said it would a year before release. So if we are talking ROI or the worth of the camera, that doesn't change. It's revolutionary because it's the only sub $35k 6K/internal raw/16 stop/HFR/ camera around. Bring on the early quirks. The trade off is more than worth it.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

IMPO: I see a whole lot of users who really need the safety of a DSLR or a "processed in-camera" look to help their images succeed.
To be honest, we shoot often with both the F65 and the Epic MX and or Dragon and all of these cameras require a D.P.s experience, expertise , a really good gaffer and appropriate optics to produce a beautiful image.
I would NEVER compare the F65 with the F55, they are not remotely the same camera.
Yes, images created on RED or F65 cameras by those with limited technical skills look less than lovely, but the same can be said for classic emulsion-based capture.
It does seem to me that lower prices for cameras have placed professional machines in many inexperienced hands. This is clearly evident in the countless, questionable postings by uninformed or inexperienced owners.
At the end of the day, all cameras that shoot raw, don't have the safety net that many folks with limited skills really DO need.
IMPO: Both Sony and RED have released products that were not ready for prime-time in an era of very competitive and questionable marketing.
The current complaints about Dragon and past negative reactions to the F65 circa 2012 may indeed be warranted, because of the climate of lower profit margins and heavy competition for each and every dollar spent on gear.
Once there was a time when professional gear was reserved for the very few with the skills and years of practice to produce images of integrity, now we have to accept the toxic examples of fine tools in the wrong hands.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

It does seem to me that lower prices for cameras have placed professional machines in many inexperienced hands. This is clearly evident in the countless, questionable postings by uninformed or inexperienced owners.

So you think it is user error? If only they knew how to do their job better? Ok. But then you say...

Both Sony and RED have released products that were not ready for prime-time in an era of very competitive and questionable marketing. The current complaints about Dragon ..... may indeed be warranted because of the climate of lower profit margins and heavy competition in our industry for each and every dollar spent on gear.

So is it the inexperienced user or is it the hardware causing professionals headaches?

I think these opinions are coming from professionals and to dismiss them is to try to brush REAL problems out of sight.

 

[Elsie N]

As I already said, this thread is NOT about Sony vs Red. I repeat, Sony never claimed F65 to be an 8K camera. On the other hand Red does claim Dragon is able to produce 6k images the same way the original Red One was marketed as a 4k camera. And that is just not true. I can just imagine what would happen, if ARRI started claiming, that Alexa is a 3K camera…
Let's just agree, that right now there is no 6k camera other than film

RE: your previous post, while I look for and appreciate Jeff Kilgroe's posts probably more than any other Reduser, to suggest (at least by proximity in your post) that Jake is a FUDDER I think is poor form. People like Jake and Mike Most that aren't invested in RED cameras - because they are post professionals that work with footage from a lot of different cameras, provide a very useful perspective.

Both Sony and Red engage in technical and marketing "puffery". IIRC RED's early marketing pieces touted "No pixel shifting spoken here" (pixel shifting in a 3 chip camera referred to the offsetting the green chip so it's pixels were in between those of the other chips and provided up to a 40% increase in resolution) while failing to talk about the vagaries of its use of Bayer pattern which tends to REDUCE actual resolution by about 20% as well as color issues due to the interpolation and uncertainty of the color data.

If we are going to talk comparisons, it probably makes more sense to consider the F55, the Alexa, Blackmagic, Canon and Nikon, (and even GoPro) as these are the cameras that are actually selling in the market. I'm pretty sure that Sony would just as soon forget the F65 phase as it didn't sell that well and most of the customers were unhappy with its price to value ratio and ROI - to the point where Sony made some very large financial rebates.

I doubt if there is anything that camera makers can do to unseat Arri in the 1080 television series market in the next year or two. But I hope RED can do something to make Dragon the overwhelmingly clear choice for movie people that can and want to work with higher resolutions, as we all thought it would be when it was first promoted.

The second paragraph was the one where I was referring to someone making an erroneous statement. And in that example, yes... I was referring to Jake. He got caught making an erroneous statement and still would not own up to his mistake, so I think it is fair to show the mistake and then show the disproving of his erroneous statement.

The first paragraph was devoted to those who have no connection to the history of Reduser and claim that RED is conducting improper business practices. Anyone who has been here from the beginning knows that accusations that RED is exaggerating their claims, remember that from the beginning RED has acknowledged sensor size and actual debayer resolution. And Jim specifically stated 16 1/2 stops IIRC, when the previously mentioned 20 stop chart was revealed. Jake seems so intent on calling out RED for what he perceives as spreading misinformation, and then erroneously champions Sony for doing just that and then refuses to admit he was wrong.

It seems like anyone trying to calm the mob with truth is looked upon as the establishment and is therefore, against all the anarchists.

Funny story... when I first read that post by Jake I remembered back when DaVinci Resolve was going to offer a free lite version of their product. Jake moaned and groaned for days on Reduser how he had just paid x amount of dollars for the full version and now they were giving it away. Now, why would anyone care what Jake paid and why would he be posting his woes here on Reduser?... unless! He was acting as a schill for Davinci! Knowing that constantly complaining was drawing interest to the software, why would he be trying to help them increase their user base? BECAUSE HE WAS IN BED WITH THEM!? '-)

That's why, in case it is true, I wondered if RED had seen the same thing and hired him to criticize the Dragon in order to draw more attention to it. But I discounted that conspiracy theory right away because I don't think he has the same relationship with RED as he has with DaVinci. Still, if the DaVinci story is true, that kind of makes his statement that RED has misrepresented their accomplishments a bit hypocritical?

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

So you think it is user error? If only they knew how to do their job better? Ok. But then you say...


So is it the inexperienced user or is it the hardware causing professionals headaches?

I think these opinions are coming from professionals and to dismiss them is to try to brush REAL problems out of sight.

It is both.
At this moment you can see that being played out real time, right here with bleeding edge tech.

I can assure you that with the right crew and budget to support these cameras, there are very few professionals having the same problems as those I have seen posted online.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

unless! He was acting as a schill for Davinci! Knowing that constantly complaining was drawing interest to the software, why would he be trying to help them increase their user base? BECAUSE HE WAS IN BED WITH THEM!? '-)

I`m sure jake will respond but the paranoia is pretty intense.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

It is both.
I can assure you that with the right crew and budget to support these cameras, there are very few professionals having the same problems as those I have seen posted online.

These problems have nothing to do with crew size.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

These problems have nothing to do with crew size.

Who said anything about crew size?

I think you are missing the point and for that reason I will step off this conversation here.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Who said anything about crew size?

I think you are missing the point and for that reason I will step off this conversation here.

You said Crew and Budget was needed to get these cameras working.

 

[jake blackstone]

The second paragraph was the one where I was referring to someone making an erroneous statement. And in that example, yes... I was referring to Jake. He got caught making an erroneous statement and still would not own up to his mistake, so I think it is fair to show the mistake and then show the disproving of his erroneous statement.

The first paragraph was devoted to those who have no connection to the history of Reduser and claim that RED is conducting improper business practices. Anyone who has been here from the beginning knows that accusations that RED is exaggerating their claims, remember that from the beginning RED has acknowledged sensor size and actual debayer resolution. And Jim specifically stated 16 1/2 stops IIRC, when the previously mentioned 20 stop chart was revealed. Jake seems so intent on calling out RED for what he perceives as spreading misinformation, and then erroneously champions Sony for doing just that and then refuses to admit he was wrong.

It seems like anyone trying to calm the mob with truth is looked upon as the establishment and is therefore, against all the anarchists.

Funny story... when I first read that post by Jake I remembered back when DaVinci Resolve was going to offer a free lite version of their product. Jake moaned and groaned for days on Reduser how he had just paid x amount of dollars for the full version and now they were giving it away. Now, why would anyone care what Jake paid and why would he be posting his woes here on Reduser?... unless! He was acting as a schill for Davinci! Knowing that constantly complaining was drawing interest to the software, why would he be trying to help them increase their user base? BECAUSE HE WAS IN BED WITH THEM!? '-)

That's why, in case it is true, I wondered if RED had seen the same thing and hired him to criticize the Dragon in order to draw more attention to it. But I discounted that conspiracy theory right away because I don't think he has the same relationship with RED as he has with DaVinci. Still, if the DaVinci story is true, that kind of makes his statement that RED has misrepresented their accomplishments a bit hypocritical?

Now I know you're insane. Anyone who reads and follows my posts knows, that I call it the way I see it. You had been watching way too many conspiracy theory movies.
Just to clear the record, I didn't pay for Resolve and Decklink card, as it was given to me gratis as a beta tester... So, your claim, that "Jake moaned and groaned for days on Reduser how he had just paid x amount of dollars for the full version and now they were giving it away" doesn't ring true.
And if you bothered to research my posts over the years (not a year you claim), you'd know that I tend to speak my mind when I see BS, like 6k camera claims or no possibility of GPU debayer.
So, go ahead, keep saying, that I got caught in an erroneous statement and keep saying, that I am a shill for Blackmagic and Red, if that makes you feel better. All it just shows to everyone else just how tenuous your clams really are...
And finally, posts like that are the reason why post production professionals stopped posting here...

 

[Nick Fury]

It won't be long now...

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[BrendanLeahy]

You said Crew and Budget was needed to get these cameras working.

Brandon was referring to the other people that you'd possibly have on the crew aside from the DP/camera op, such as the gaffer and (for post) the colorist. Getting a proper image out of the Dragon (or any camera for that matter) means having a good team that knows what they're doing, unless you're a jack of all trades.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

 

[Elsie N]

Now I know you're insane. Anyone who reads and follows my posts knows, that I call it the way I see it. You had been watching way too many conspiracy theory movies.
Just to clear the record, I didn't pay for Resolve and Decklink card, as it was given to me gratis as a beta tester... So, your claim, that "Jake moaned and groaned for days on Reduser how he had just paid x amount of dollars for the full version and now they were giving it away" doesn't ring true.
And if you bothered to research my posts over the years (not a year you claim), you'd know that I tend to speak my mind when I see BS, like 6k camera claims or no possibility of GPU debayer.
So, go ahead, keep saying, that I got caught in an erroneous statement and keep saying, that I am a shill for Blackmagic and Red, if that makes you feel better. All it just shows to everyone else just how tenuous your clams really are...
And finally, posts like that are the reason why post production professionals stopped posting here...

So did you? If you did, just admit it and everyone will admire your willingness to admit when you are wrong.

 

[Phil Holland]

Woosh. I've been responding via cell and now I'm back at the hut and had a good read through. I'm going to attempt to steer this crashing vehicle back onto the road.

First of all, thank you to the folks for the shout outs. My interests are the same as your interests in terms of a camera owner and shooter. Fortunately Red has trusted me a few times to test stuff thoroughly and I certainly appreciate that.


So, back to the original topic. I'm having a good think here. What is Dragon now that's it's landed?

First I find it interesting as some of the conversation is rather circular from the Mysterium-X days. But Dragon has made some fairly noticeable improvements over Mysterium-X. I'm going to list a few off the top of my head:


Color Science and Skin Tones
Perhaps the biggest monster to deal with. This in my mind is where Dragon has surprised me the most. The color straight out of camera is really, really good. DRAGONcolor and now REDgamma4 provides a damn nice "dense" image.

Dynamic Range and No More DRX
Perhaps the largest fingerprint of what I would describe as "not ideally" graded material was the unattractive magenta overexposure found in Mysterium-X footage. Utilizing DRX or tackling it in the color grade would eliminate this obviously and we all have had to do that. With Dragon that is a thing of the past. Which leads me to......

Improved Highlight Roll-Off and More Analog Looking Digital Imaging
This one took me a bit by surprise because it does look that much better when rolling-off to clip or top tier highlights. In fact I'd say it might look the best out of all current cameras on the market. This is something I think more film people would take notice of during camera tests and really would attract them to Dragon as it's a whole different experience in general shooting. It's not a hard clip like Mysterium-X. Red clearly has tuned Dragon to "ramp" a bit for a smoother more film-like roll-off.

Vastly Improved IR Performance
This is freaking massive to me because we all shoot with Neutral Density filters and in the past both on Mysterium-X and other cameras we've had to utilize various IR blocking/cutting/tinting filters. I know based on my experiments and footage in general that sometimes a few of these filters nuke certain colors. Colors I want to see in my footage. Colors I don't want to work hard to recover. With Dragon none of this chaos is necessary. And this is monumental from a practical shooting perspective. The color is good with a nice set of matched temperature regular ND filters. All the way to ND 3.0 even. Which is nuts. Seriously

Color Grading Latitude
I've been "fondling" my footage aggressively in dark rooms for a while out of Dragon. What I am enjoying from a colorist's perspective is having a bit more freedom in manipulating the images. Both in tonality and in the chromatic performance. It's really weird pulling a nicely exposed thick image down to ISO 50 and seeing what's in there. And often there are goodies to be found. Same for the shadows. This has influenced my way of shooting and even rating for particular shoots/scenes. I'm digging it as I get more comfortable with Dragon and the looks I'm hoping to achieve.

Color Temperature Performance and General Image Noise
Dragon certainly is better in the 3200K and lower arena compared to Mysterium-X. Also the general noise pattern isn't as "patchy" under some of those conditions compared to Mysterium-X. Where I was often shooting MX with a color filter under tungsten I don't find myself doing that with Dragon at all.

Format Size, Resolution, Format/Resolution Relevance
It's a pretty big deal that Red got 5K into the S35 3-perf format size in my mind. Dragon also has plenty of resolving power. And you can choose what to do with that. Lately I've been posting and finishing footage with a light tough of the Post:Look:Effects:Sharpening applied. I'm loving what I'm getting there and it looks great here on my 70" Sharp UHD4K screen. Digging that. Also, the format size of 6K FF is really rad. Obviously lens coverage is a concern with S35 lenses, but most do well at 6K HD and 6K WS. FF35 cinema-minded primes are now available by a few manufacturers and we have that option for 6K FF and 6K 2:1. Personally I'd love for a larger more VistaVision sized sensor personally, but Dragon 6K-5K just makes so much sense from film scanning and image scaling perspective. So kudos to Red on that one.

Newly Designed Lens Port/Sensor Box Thing
This allows for more of the tricky lenses to be used. Which was nice of Red

OLPF
Well we got two now and a Modular OLPF option coming the horizon. There's about a 1.3 stop difference between the two. V1 favors seeing into the dark, V2 favors midtones through highlight retention. Two different flavors of ice cream. V1 exhibits some of the things that aren't optimal in terms of highlight orbs, potential IR contamination in the shadows, shadow information being slightly lifted in some lighting situations creating more noise, the "red dot" patter at smaller apertures, etc... V2 solves literally all of those things at the expense less clean high ISO ratings. Though you gain improved highlight retention and better overall color performance, which is more important to some. Red's obviously still experimenting and developing more options on this front, but I stress that both of these are very much production ready. Also, the OLPFs so far are less aggressive than Mysterium-X by a "hair", which is nice for those who want more resolution. For those who are concerned mostly by cleaner high ISO performance the V1 OLPF is the choice for you. Though it comes with it's own "character" and concerns. V2 is for the folks who demand the best out of camera color and a more "film-like" camera in my mind.

4K Broadcast Module
This will be important to some people, but not all. However, Mysterium-X won't support it when it's released and for those who need this particular workflow Dragon is the thing that you're after. Something that should be noted is you can record the 4K raw stream via the module to a recorder pre-REDCODE RAW encoding. While this may lead to very large files, it will actually be some damn sexy resolution. And it handles up to 60p at 4K. The 6K, 5.5K, 5K, 4.5K, and 4K resolutions are scaled down to the 4X HD-SDI outs. We'll learn more about this soon, but this is an important tool as UHD Broadcast is slowly growing.


in the VFX industry we use a term "CBB" during dailies. This stands for "Could be better". Here's a couple things that need or are being improved:

Red Specks in Shadows, Darks, and Midtones
This bun is already in the oven and coming in the form of "DEB" or Dragon Enhanced Blacks. Though quickly we've learned that's it's not just correcting the red specks, but actually improving the color channel cleanliness and resolved detail through an adaptive debayer algorithm. Fairly cool stuff. And best of all it doesn't come at the expense of any sort of additional processing time. The Redcine-X Pro build I've been testing is likely soon to be released. And it will be just a matter of time to get it into the SDK for 3rd Party Tools.

CMOS Horizontal Smearing
This one is the tricky one and does indeed happen on other systems at varying degrees. It's more or less something that at the moment we as image makers need to be mindful. This artifact occurs when overexposure causes a magenta smear horizontally across a frame. Oddly the opposite of what happens with a CCD as that's vertical. The artifact is more apparent when shooting at higher ISO ratings which is digging more into those shadows. It's unknown at the moment if there's anything truly to do about this, but I imagine a few possible solutions and I know I've sent some files over to Red to inspect.


Current Final Thoughts?
So where does that lead me? I will say if you saw the mountain I had to climb to be able to afford my current gear you would understand exactly how seriously I take all of this. Right now Dragon's pros are far outweighing the cons and there are numerous improvements in regards to Mysterium-X. Improvements that put it on par or surpassing other systems depending on who you are. What I know is I can make images with Dragon at the moment that I can't with any other system. I am also into the whole modular concept behind this camera because I can work small and make it big when shooting conditions demand that. As for "not needing" 6K. Meh. I only work in 4K+ and haven't worked in HD for a while now. I have all sorts of personal and technical thoughts on high resolution capture and display for both stills and motion. I'm not really interested in having more than necessary as I can utilize the resolution as a tool and in this case a very interesting format. Red is clearly focused on developing Dragon into a more powerful too as well and we are seeing that both in hardware and software advancements. So I'm feeling fairly good about much of this.

Those are my very on topic thoughts about Dragon.

 

[PC Greene]

This...

I think RED should skip the Olpf thing, leave it out and make a OLPF/motion mount combo.

That...

Those are my very on topic thoughts about Dragon.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

A most excellent summary of the advantages of Dragon, by Phil.

I think the ONLY real sticking point - but it sticks, for sure - is that currently OLPF 2 underperforms in lowlight at 800 ISO. I think it really comes down to this one thing, which gets reiterated over and over again, sticking like a broken record - the users focused on that one aspect feel betrayed by the promise of clean images as 2000 ISO.

I guess I never actually believed that an honestly clean 2000 ISO was a possibility, so I'm not deeply upset and am willing to recalibrate my expectations for Dragon based on all of the other benefits, listed by Phil. This camera has latitude for days!

But I did expect "better than MX" noise handling at 800 ISO. I think the debate really revolves around that element feeling like a step back rather than a step forward. If RED could squeeze clean images out of the sensor at 1000 ISO ("better than MX"), I think a lot of the noise would abate.

Also, the fact that this performance was "discovered" by users - rather than recalibrated by RED - seems a bit on the hard to swallow side. The revelations about the sensor's performance at 800 ISO came out almost immediately after I received my Dragon, so it was not welcome news. I thought I had just paid good money for something which was going to offer me something BETTER than what I just traded in, in this regard. To find out that I had paid to take a step back on that particular feature didn't feel right at the time (though I'm over it now...).

However, I believed then and believe still that the RED journey involves giving the team plenty of room to improve sensor technology from their baseline release. Their previous track record of rapid enhancements has earned my patience.

I jumped on the RED wagon with Build 12, RED ONE - and it has been a remarkable ride towards fantastic images. I don't think RED is going to fall down on this one point. They've already taken a step towards a fix with DEB - let's see what else they bring.

The title of this thread implies 10 months - but for me and probably for the bulk of early adopters, it's been more like 2 months, since the assembly lines really started spitting out cameras in bulk. These are still baby DRAGONs - let's watch 'em grow.