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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Skin...

Scott Crawley said:
As rational as that all is, I view these threads as a kind of in house pre-release party. A PARTY is a time and place for celebration. Those who came here to be critical or worse take a shit are rude in the least.
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The only one being rude is your tone in this last statement, Scott. Whether you view this thread as a party or not is irrelevant. This is camera forum, one of which I've been a part of for a long time. I actually did care about how it and its users reflect upon the company and its reputation in the industry but comments like these are exactly why this place gets a bad reputation, and frankly, I'm done here. Happy cheerleading.
Evin, my apologies for side tracking your thread.
 
Maybe I am. If so I would apologize to you, but I was not speaking of any one person in particular. My opinion about how this should be viewed is only irrelevant if I am the only person who feels that way.

I was respectful of your opinion. Thank you for disregarding mine.

How do people look at three sentences and say with any confidence that they understand their tone? I'm not a good writer. I do not think I represented myself that poorly yet you completely misconstrued my intent. Such is internet chat I guess.

mikeburton said:
The only one being rude is your tone in this last statement, Scott. Whether you view this thread as a party or not is irrelevant. This is camera forum, one of which I've been a part of for a long time. I actually did care about how it and its users reflect upon the company and its reputation in the industry but comments like these are exactly why this place gets a bad reputation, and frankly, I'm done here. Happy cheerleading.
Evin, my apologies for side tracking your thread.
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mikeburton said:
Elsie, if you are satisfied taking someone else's word for it and seeing the limited amount of footage we have seen to make a personal assessment, then excellent. My concern is with the "this camera is better than that camera" kind of talk. It just doesn't make sense to me, and although I like this forum I feel its also partly to blame for why we need to defend RED in industry meetings, talks etc. I'm sure the images from Dragon will Most Likely be wonderful, that said i haven't shot with it yet so i can't say for certain which is why i would never make a statement such as "Dragon is WAY BETTER than film". But my point, if i haven't made it clear already, is that RED is what RED is. Its a great digital capture system capable of making nice imagery. So is film. They both have there advantages and disadvantages, IMO. Lets just leave it at that, shall we? Everything else is just opinion and personal aesthetic.
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I understand your desire to defend film. But as you may have gathered, most of us here desire to defend the future of movie making rather than the past of film making. You must have realized that from past Reduser discussions, so I'm sure you aren't surprised by your statements being challenged.

EDIT: To be clear Mike, I am only commenting on your statements. There is nothing personal in my comments... just observations or counterpoints.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
Maybe I am. If so I would apologize to you, but I was not speaking of any one person in particular. My opinion about how this should be viewed is only irrelevant if I am the only person who feels that way.

I was respectful of your opinion. Thank you for disregarding mine.
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It's pretty common on a forum to link a person's quote if you are in direct reference to them and or their comments / opinions. So, I don't think I mis-interpreted your comments as they were in fact directly associated to my comments to Elsie. In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory with a picture.
 

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Peace Mike.

I was addressing you directly (hence the quote), but my disparaging remarks were only directed at you if you previously took a dump in the thread. In which case I only intended to suggest that such a thing was not nice. The posts of yours I read didn't seem to fall in that category.

Out of respect for Evin I will happily conclude this via PM if you like.

mikeburton said:
It's pretty common on a forum to link a person's quote if you are in direct reference to them and or their comments / opinions. So, I don't think I mis-interpreted your comments as they were in fact directly associated to my comments to Elsie. In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory with a picture.
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Thanks Evin. I like what i saw in this test. It's visually gorgeous. The transition inside the lift with the sun behind the building, skin rendition and slip into dark interior like with the details intact between shadow and highlight. It's awesome.

Thanks for taking the time to do it, edit and post it

R
 
Evin Grant said:
For instance the elevator shot was exposed with the camera set to 4000 ISO, but I ended up developing it at 1000 ISO to hold the highlights, but the model's face is still essentially at a 4000 ISO exposure. I actually shot myself in the foot a little on this shot because I had a Vari-ND filter on, I could have gone without it and just exposed the whole scene at 1000 or 1250 ISO and gotten the same DR and even better noise performance. But honestly it's a beautiful noise pattern and doesn't distract at all IMO.
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Pretty spectacular for shooting yourself in the foot ;)

None of set out to make mistakes, but this is a hell of an insurance policy.
 
I don't think people should compare the Epic -X to the Epic Dragon because they are two different ideas. I just got my Epic -X and it has one hell of a history so it isn't a shelf camera because a new camera has arrived.
 
Tony Harris said:
I don't think people should compare the Epic -X to the Epic Dragon because they are two different ideas. I just got my Epic -X and it has one hell of a history so it isn't a shelf camera because a new camera has arrived.
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To me the most amazing thing about Dragon is that it's actually an upgrade, not just new camera body. A few years ago I wouldn't believe they'd do something like that.
 
FWIW I've had the honor of working with Evin a few times and trust his intuitive assessment of what's in the Dragon's data set.

Echoing others, until we have a fully sorted Dragon ecosystem with matched color science any serious evaluation of its capabilities is not particularly productive.

Evin, Mark T. and likely Tom L. have all been slandered over on CML which chaps me far more than the Geoff/Jim cage match. While it could be argued that the preponderance of noobs in REDville makes some of the dismissive commentary on CML broadly accurate, it's still just as rude. The irony of CMLers calling out RED as arrogant, then dissing the entire RedUser community as beneath them only hurts their credibility. Hmmm, generalizing about the relative value of an internet forum based on one segment of its contributors... there's some rhetorical quicksand.

I know this post risks derailing Evin's notes about his time with the Dragon, but I wanted to defend him and others who did in fact donate time and resources to exploring the beta Dragon. Calling them amateurs because they didn't test the way they "should" have is both rude and says more about the critic than the testers.

Cheers - #19
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
Evan,

I really appreciate you posting all of this and the time it took. I just shot 36 hours on Dragon and sadly just handed Jarred back his camera. I was mainly interested in skin tones ( happy results) and also to see about the DR. I am impressed by the smoothness of the range of the new sensor. People will really notice how flipping the histogram from RG3 to Raw doesn't show a dramatic change. It is now much harder to make those goalposts light up.

I have yet to process the 9 setups I did through RCX. But I think people will be pleased..... Thanks again for your efforts and time giving back to this forum
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Peter what lenses you shooting on? Nikons?
 
Thanks Blair, I stopped looking at CML years ago, I couldn't give less of a shit if they're comparing me to Bin Laden :ihih:

Nick Morrison said:
Peter what lenses you shooting on? Nikons?
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Sure looks like a 105mm 2.8 Micro Nikkor to me...
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Very soon, the industrial infrastructure that supports the manufacture of photochemical film will cease to be. Since the industry that relies on film the most has monumentally dragged their collective feet to provide a replacement, even after decades of indicators have pointed toward the inevitable, it is with great excitement that I await the new Dragon sensor. The road ahead is being paved by Red since they are the acknowledged market leaders in R&D. The very notion of film as an option for anyone other than Steven Spielberg, is already a memory. It seems to me that any debate about the merits of Dragon over film are now moot and counter-productive to what should be the goal of every film maker young and old, and that is: Learning how to get the most from the new technology in service to our art and craft. The development curve awaiting the Dragon class of sensors and their related cousins still in the lab has got to be staggering. At this stage, we're comparing Teslas and Model T's, when we even mention film as an option. She's on life-support at best. It would take the likes of a Charismatic Preacher at a Revival meeting to summon the miraculous market forces necessary to resurrect the film option. She has been replaced in all aspects of her existence. She is but a ghost, as relevant to the debate as a reference chart, existing only as goal, a target to be met and surpassed. John Henry vs. The Steam Shovel. I am reflecting today as Jim redirects his focus and energies to other goals, that he has presided over the great transition and has been, in lock-step with Jarred, Graeme, Ted and the rest of Red Team, one of the most important formative forces in the evolution of cinema. Too often we are too swept up in the current to see the big picture when history happens, so it seems quaint and corny to view events from an outside long-form perspective, but the past few years have been very exciting to watch. I appreciate all the hard work and sacrifice and I look forward to all the great new innovations coming not just from Red, but from the competition as well. The Dragon brings change. An unstoppable force of apocalypse and re-birth. Awesome, market-shattering change that benefits everyone.
 
Evin, downloaded that massive 2GB file btw. Thank you for doing uploading that. Really like what I'm looking at. There looks to be a lot of room to play.
 
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