Dragon Scarlet upgrade what is your best guess?

[Terry VerHaar]

:huh: I love being told what I might have said when I didn't say it.

The rest... ??

I think you will find that I don't get involved in the gushing threads... but that would ruin your characterization of me ... so, to hell with accuracy.

And - LOL - yes, this is all very amusing.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

People make mistakes, people refuse to admit them, and will try and explain away their embarrassing statements of this and that, the ego is a tough thing to control especially online. But to me the thing I can't stand is hate, pure hate for no reason, you don't need to respond if it will just be a rant of hate, you can but why would you?(not directed at anyone) Trying to use negativity and malice as some reverse psychology to get red to change? come on. Constructive criticism is always welcome but talking like red needs bad press just to get what they should do assumes a lot about their mindset. It saddens me when we grossly underestimate the integrity and intelligence of people from the sidelines without truly understanding of the realities they are dealing with on a day to day process.

You create the world you live in, manifest the world you want by being the person you want others to be, to be honest I more and more am coming to the conclusion that both the "fanboys" and the "true hero's asking what others wont pushing the behemoth" are both crazy in their own ways and do not fall into the realm of normal rational people when it comes to discussing the brand they are championing or cutting down. Not saying these very same people should be in looney bins they are most likely very fine individuals in their respective communities. It's just when they get online and talking about their camera/whatever they just can't help themselves. The more I try and find the good in things the reasonable or even to just see the other sides perspective, the more I'm enjoying life and everything around me, never going to live in a grumpy hate filled world again just not worth it life is to short.

Have a good one stay passionate, and hate the hate!

 

[Mike Garrick]

Man this thread has gone deep......@ Stephen "hating hate" yep totally agree there is too much of it in this world .

The flip side 'fanboyism' to a logo, any logo, belongs in the another world, not on a pro camera forum.

Anyway back on topic interesting issue with the current stated price upgrade or buy new ?

One thing IMO is coming "down the pike" is a price drop on MX Scarlet which in turn will have a flow on with used Scarlets pricing. Personally I'v factored in a ridiculous price on my cam without SSD module and mount and I'm quite comfortable with the outcome if I decide to buy a SD new.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Man this thread has gone deep......@ Stephen "hating hate" yep totally agree there is too much of it in this world .

The flip side 'fanboyism' to a logo, any logo, belongs in the another world, not on a pro camera forum.

Anyway back on topic interesting issue with the current stated price upgrade or buy new ?

One thing IMO is coming "down the pike" is a price drop on MX Scarlet which in turn will have a flow on with used Scarlets pricing. Personally I'v factored in a ridiculous price on my cam without SSD module and mount and I'm quite comfortable with the outcome if I decide to buy a SD new.

Definitely a tough call. If you buy new you probably get it faster than waiting for them to finish Epic M and X upgrades. You also get a longer warranty, and if are smart about selling old scarlet can even save some money.

Being that I ordered the upgrade to Scarlet D within a minute of it going live, not sure whether to wait and hope they indeed to start upgrading cameras faster.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

:huh: I love being told what I might have said when I didn't say it.

You put words in Anderson's mouth and then crocodile tears when I put words in your mouth. *World's smallest violin*. Feel free to be a snarky ass, some of my best friends are snarky asses (I'm a snarky ass), but don't pretend you weren't being an ass and appeal to some high ground while still slinging shit at others.

If you're going to throw a punch stick around for the fight. Don't go crying that someone hit back.

 

[Jarred Land]

If it costs $85k to setup a separate production line that can handle 500 cameras per month and that saves 1% of potential customers from dropping their order every month they're making an extra $90k. It makes no sense to be so far ahead technically only to squander your R&D advantage on manufacturing delaying your release by a year. R&D is f*#)@ expensive. When you buy an Epic you're probably spending 10% on manufacturing and 90% on R&D. If your product life is 3 years, but 1 year is spent stuck in upgrade limbo then you've blown 1/3rd of your R&D budget on a product you can't sell. RED seems to have looked around at the new landscape and done the same math.

With all due respect... you are reaching here. You seem to have forgotten that the majority of the delay for beginning the upgrades for Dragon was a conscious decision to make it better. Instead of just a sensor upgrade the Dragon has all new boards including ASICs that took time, that we were very transparent about. We then had a low sensor yield that took time to get through, that for the record, was not something that we had any control of what so ever and no amount of money or resources or praying could of changed.

The delays in upgrades for the last three months have been mostly logistical... and yes, they have sucked and it has hurt everyone, both the customer and RED. But as I have stated, we have committed to increase capacity, which in turn makes the cost of every single camera we make increase, and we are not putting that increase onto the customer in the return for the patience.

And I don't know where you got your $85k number to add another line to the production floor, I hope you just pulled that out of your ass but you gotta reach back there and dig around a bit more as you left a couple zeros in there.

And I already said we are not shipping Scarlet Dragons to new customers till we get through a huge chunk of upgrades, to the upgrade stage that we already said we would allow new orders to be fulfilled.

 

[Dustin Dooley]

I'm going to bring this back to the OP. My best guess is that I will receive my Scarlet D upgrade on May 27 ;D kinda wish I lived in Cali. It would be beyond awesome working on the line making some Red Cams!

BTW I'm not being a "fanboy" I actually like working on electronics. Also I think it is starting to be a rare occurrence when a company truly has passion for their craft. When I find those companies big or small I tend to stick with them. No matter what your opinion is, you have to admit this is an awesome community and the folks that keep Red going every day are passionate about what they do. For that I have a lot of respect.

 

[Brian Merlen]

the upgrade/trade ins by the very nature of themselves will always take a while logistically...originally the idea was user swappable sensors, maybe revisiting that concept for future releases could make a faster delivery method (just thinking back to the original idea)? but it takes a hell of a lot of good engineering to design a product that can do that, unless of course its the sony approach to slowly rereleasing the same stuff, but i don't think that would be in line with reds philosophy.... which is why adding boards and unforeseen stuff is almost inevitable and designing some kind of lego like box to put it all in seems really difficult, when in reality as technology changes so do the size constraints...seems like a hard business doing this stuff, my heart goes out to red and all the brands giving it a go... esp the newcomers getting slaughtered on their faults (looking at Black magic here)

so as for how to design the original sensor swap idea, seems hard as hell...but in theory it would eliminate all waiting if red tried to embrace that concept at some point? just thinking out loud here, by no means does my 2 cents matter... personally i like the green attitude of trade ins, versus bunch of old sensors collecting dust...i hope you guys give away all the mx's to film schools some day, that'd be really swell for the BT ones! (or resell them for indies, like the red one, what a deal!)

 

[Logan Smith]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Red wouldn't suffer the damage caused by delayed product releases if they simply set and announced more realistic timelines for themselves. They should have only announced the Dragon when it was two months from shipping instead of two years (or three years, as it's starting to look for some people). They should have only started taking Dragon upgrade orders when the upgrades were actually ready to get started (my one year dragon upgrade order anniversary is tomorrow). It's just bad business, bad marketing and even a little back-handed. I personally would not have bought an Epic if I knew I would have had to wait so long for the Dragon upgrade and I'm sure there are plenty of Scarlet and Epic owners out there in the same boat. I'm giving Red the benefit of the doubt though and just assuming that the ponderous Dragon release is the result of incompetence and a lack of foresight and not a deliberate and nefarious attempt by Red to hook more customers with the promise of upgrades that are supposedly right around the corner.

If I were convinced to buy a Porsche over a Ferrari by the promise of an engine upgrade for $6k in a year's time but didn't actually get the upgrade until 3 years later and it ended up costing $10k I would probably sell the Porsche, never do business with them again and warn everyone in town to stay away from their cars. Porsche, like most well-run companies, would never let this actually happen though and if they did they would offer the upgrade for free. Also, it should be noted that in this hypothetical situation no one is depending on the Porsche as a means to put food on the table.

All Red has to do when anyone asks when a product is coming out is just reply with "when it's ready". Voila! Problem solved... for the customer, at least. Being honest might hurt Red's profits if everyone knew exactly how close to being vaporware a lot of their supposedly "shipping soon" products really are (RIP Meizler Module)...

I will always cut Red a little slack though for single-handedly pushing the envelope, even offering upgrade paths at all and, of course, for being an American company. Oh, and the Epic is still a pretty good camera.

 

[Brian Merlen]

But Logan the only reason we are included earlier in the process is for our benefit. We got to give input, shoot ideas around, the entire company was started similar to the Digital Bolex in a way in that the deposits were put down on a start up. Sure we aren't happy when products don't work out, but I am sure Red isn't either. They pour a ton of cash into the ideas, plus include us on discussions, so then it looks even worse if it falls apart and they end up with pie on their face. I still like an open Red, even more open then now because it provided an interesting perspective in the triumphs and tribulations of cine camera production. An open Red is what got us where we are today, support on all platforms, all the options in the menus, all the silly features this production or that just must have. User feedback is what got this ecosystem so successful, this system so widespread and popular. If anything I miss JJ and the constant cryptic hints, and passion he brought to camera making, the authentic excitement he shared, just like his customers in his products. That is what got me into Red, and every time people want even more censoring it makes me wonder if the product, the ecosystem, the RU community would be as wonderful as they turned out with such policies...

 

[Dustin Dooley]

At times times I've had to tell customers their video is going to take a little longer than expected so that I can give them the best quality that I can possibly deliver. I'm sure a lot of people who run production businesses have had to do the same thing. As long as I'm up front with those customers they almost always understand. When I deliver it and it's better than they expected they forget about the delay and show appreciation. In fact the last time this unfortunately happened they recommended me to some associates. Red has been pretty up front with the issues so I can understand. Does it suck, sure, but if the product ends up more than I expected I'll be happy. You try to minimize it and build in buffers to factor in issues that might delay your delivery, but shit happens.

 

[Logan Smith]

But Logan the only reason we are included earlier in the process is for our benefit... I still like an open Red, even more open then now because it provided an interesting perspective in the triumphs and tribulations of cine camera production... That is what got me into Red, and every time people want even more censoring it makes me wonder if the product, the ecosystem, the RU community would be as wonderful as they turned out with such policies...

There is a huge difference between having a transparent or "open" marketing style and misleading customers with absurdly optimistic and unrealistic product release timelines, essentially announcing products like they're ready to be released when they're actually still just ideas on the drawing board. What's the point of having "open" communication with a company if you can't take anything they say seriously?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

With all due respect... you are reaching here. You seem to have forgotten that the majority of the delay for beginning the upgrades for Dragon was a conscious decision to make it better. Instead of just a sensor upgrade the Dragon has all new boards including ASICs that took time, that we were very transparent about. We then had a low sensor yield that took time to get through, that for the record, was not something that we had any control of what so ever and no amount of money or resources or praying could of changed.

The year of lost R&D to which I was referring was 2014. At the pace you were working through cameras it was feeling very much like most Epic-X upgrades wouldn't be done until late 2014. Of course manufacturing delays are manufacturing delays and nothing can be done about that. In fact I would consider that part of the cost of R&D.

And I don't know where you got your $85k number to add another line to the production floor, I hope you just pulled that out of your ass but you gotta reach back there and dig around a bit more as you left a couple zeros in there

Mostly out of my ass. But to be fair to my ass number that was only for 500 cameras and a single month. I just figured I remembered there being about 7 employees at NAB 2013, They looked like they were getting through about 20 cameras a day. 20 cameras / day * 20 days/ month = 400 cameras per month. 7 employees * $60 an hour * 8 hr * 20 days = $67k / month. Double that for equipment: $70k in equipment per employee = $490k in tools / 24 months amortization = $20.4k + $67k = $87k per month.

I imagine your real production lines can handle more than 400 cameras per month. So Production Line Capacity / 400 * $87k to be truly fair to my bullshit number. And *12 months. So yes, lots of more zeroes. But considering my other number "1%" of potential customers opting for a competitor due to delays--I feel like I'm being pretty conservative in the break-even for increased production. I don't even know 500 potential RED customers but I know of at least 2 people who chose to go with different cameras due to delays. It's true that it was prior to the last couple months--but it might have helped me sell them on it if they were currently shopping. Not to mention with a different camera they aren't buying memory cards, wrenches and card readers in the future.

 

[Jarred Land]

All good Gavin... all I can say is that we are working hard to get through the backorders. It's an interesting dance.

 

[Medavoym]

And I don't know where you got your $85k number to add another line to the production floor, I hope you just pulled that out of your ass but you gotta reach back there and dig around a bit more as you left a couple zeros in there.

Gavin, can I dig as well? I need to buy a second camera and I don't have the funds.

 

[Tarek salman]

Upgrade should be 5000 no more

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Upgrade should be 5000 no more

To be sure, I would love that. But, why? Is RED required to give us full value for our used Scarlets on a trade-in?

 

[BrendanLeahy]

To be sure, I would love that. But, why? Is RED required to give us full value for our used Scarlets on a trade-in?

I know it's hard to place a value on used Scarlet-Xs, but I also have mixed feelings on the cost of the upgrade now.

The easiest way to think of this is in terms of what upgrade paths were offered:

-NEW Epic-X
-Scarlet-D (old body, a lot of new internal parts)


Now, let's say RED valued your Scarlet-X body at full retail value (unlikely) - that would be $7,950.00
Pay for the upgrade to Epic-X, and the total value of that new Epic-X is $17,450.00 - $50 cheaper than what the camera retails for brand new in the store

Here's where it gets tricky...

With that same thought process, your upgraded Scarlet-Dragon camera is now worth $17,450.00
The biggest issue? A brand new, fresh out-of-the-box Scarlet-Dragon with a clean slate inside and out is selling for $14,500.00

It almost feels like you're paying an extra $2,950.00 just to keep your old body.

Again, though - Jarred has pointed out that squeezing Dragon into Scarlet has been a bit of a challenge, so I'm not sure what costs actually look like on their end. Additionally, RED doesn't value your Scarlet-Xs at full retail value, but either way you look at it, it seems that buying a brand new Scarlet-Dragon or upgrading to the Epic-X would be better.

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this, though - I seem to be stuck on this and welcome other points of view to understand the situation better!

 

[Jarred Land]

Is RED required to give us full value for our used Scarlets on a trade-in?

No we are not.. and no we will not.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm just happy RED provides an upgrade path, period.