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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon or not. Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Joel Arvidsson

Joel Arvidsson

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So this is the last day to upgrade at the reduced price right? Feels like Im doing a rerun from last november when I decided to not upgrade...but then came the upgrade deadline...and weapon.

For the moment Im very happy with the Epic all in all. But the june deadline pushing me closer to an upgrade. Man I wish I known what Weapon is! and what that upgrade would cost. Is it going to have a sidehandle??? or similar controls? Will it boot fast as Epic or slower than dragon? Will it be more or less sensitive reaching the right temp. Will it drain batteries faster or slower..And the list goes on.



But since no one can answer the questions above I have some questions for the Dragon owners.

Do you find that Dragon at 4k have more details and look better or worse than Epic in 4k? How about 120fps in 4k. Which has less compression and looks best??
Its great that it has 6k but do you find that it brings alot more details than Epic in 5k? I remember looking at images posted here from the Epic and Dragon and it was not a great victory for the Dragon in terms of details.

On epic the 3k looks ok but 95% of all slowmo work I will choose 4k or 5k cause I think its looks better.
My fear is that you would not use the 4k 120fps case we are cropping down so deep to the sensor. What your thoughts about this.

Also I do not like that it should take half an minute to boot up! Plus it seams to be much more important to reach sensor temp then Epic. So how many minutes does it take to be up and running? Of course I warm the epic sensor but some times it has not reach the calibrated temp and it still looks great!

But I do like the smoother roll of of the highlight on the dragon!



Its quiet a lot of money for the upgrade when your not 100% sure. But it sure would suck alot to miss chance to upgrade later to the weapon depends on what it is.
 
Well I can answer your question with a few cryptic answers.

First, RED doesn't "go backwards". Dragon is better than Mysterium-X when it comes to pure image quality, color, etc... I've been shooting Dragon exclusively and the only time I've touched a Mysterium-X in the last 1.5 years was for testing really.

Second. What is Weapon? It's the future.

It's been hinted that there's a new Side Handle coming down the pipe.

REDCODE is slightly better on Dragon. Yep, 4K is a smaller window, but not by a crazy amount. If you're using the MINI-MAGs you get even more compression benefits.

The real question is do you want to be able to upgrade your camera to Dragon? And maybe to Weapon down the line if that suits you.

I've seen Weapon and RED is going to a format size that I want down the line real bad. For me it's an easy answer.
 
Upgrade Joel, you won't regret it. You will regret not upgrading, though. Its about your workflow, too. Think about it. If you don't upgrade, are you going to fork out 20K for a camera from another manufacturer with similar specs? Or 40 to 50K?

I already went Dragon last year and don't regret one bit.
 
Phil Holland said:
Well I can answer your question with a few cryptic answers.

Second. What is Weapon? It's the future.
Click to expand...

Thanks Phil, I especially liked the your answer to what weapon is.

I today last day to upgrade at reduced price?
 
Joel,

I've invested in RED since the start. I have never been disappointed with any of my investments. I don't think this one will be any different.

One always must do what one is comfortable doing, but from my perspective, if you like the system and the benefits, its an easy choice.
 
Joel, today is the last day. I don't know if you can sign a deal without the money being in the account though. Germany told me the money would have to be in by today. But I don't think that's true for everywhere ;)
That said: I was at the edge of selling my Scarlet MX and buying Scarlet Dragon new. It would have been better for me all together because I could upgrade the screen etc but then the europe price was raised and the deal didn't work anymore. Maybe in the future this is also a viable option for you. If I had an Epic MX, I probably would have waited. But that's me. If the Epic MX is serving you well, the only reason to upgrade now is to maybe save you a couple of bucks in the future.

That said: if you're truly thinking about the upgrade already, now is the time ;)
What I meant is: The new cameras are not going anywhere. You can always buy back into the upgrade path with a new camera.
 
Exactly my words Samir. I was close to doing that and it would (for me) have been a better deal at the time. Wasn't quite quick enough though with everything.
 
Patrick Grossien said:
Joel, today is the last day. I don't know if you can sign a deal without the money being in the account though. Germany told me the money would have to be in by today. But I don't think that's true for everywhere ;)
That said: I was at the edge of selling my Scarlet and buying a new Dragon. It would have been better for me all together because I could upgrade the screen etc but then the europe price was raised and the deal didn't work anymore. Maybe in the future this is also a viable option for you. If I had an Epic, I probably would have waited. But that's me. If the Epic is serving you well, the only reason to upgrade now is to maybe save you a couple of bucks in the future.

That said: if you're truly thinking about the upgrade already, now is the time ;)
What I meant is: Dragon is not going anywhere. You can always buy back into the upgrade path with a new camera.
Click to expand...

If you cash with a master card I guess It no problem today. The Epic serves me great. But Im very interested in what weapon is.
 
I have thought about all that for quite a while and initially decided against an update. Decided to do it alter.
But with the price increase and the fact the upgrade path will be gone sometime in summer, I looked deeper into the topic and
decided to go for it. In fact, my Epic just added in California today.

I think one can clearly say that the main benefit for updating is to stay on track for the next steps that will come from RED on a cheaper price (Weapon).
This will be so for the next 2 years I guess, so you won´t be forced to go Weapon right away, too. Then there is the Dragon sensor. It has a better look overall, much better skin tones, better performance with highlights (with skin tone OLPF) and a nicer fall off. Also, the ability to with the OLPF according to your needs. I guess there is no other camera in the market that gives you as many possibilities right now.

I was really pissed to being forced into this and the additional price increase just 2 weeks ago in EUR, but I went for it and I think it was the best compromise to do.
 
Ok let me rephrase. And see what REDs history can tell us.

If you bought a RED ONE and skipped Epic MX because you were happy with the R1 we have:

Upgrade to Dragon over the years: $25.750
Buy Epic Dragon new today: $26.200 (plus you will make a few K when selling the RED ONE kit)

The R1 deal to Epic was the best deal today. So the upgrade deal probably won't save you that much money. What the upgrade does is keep you equipped with newest tech all the time. If you don't need that, skipping one and buying new the version after that is a viable option I would guess.

If you have the money and want to upgrade anyway - do it today ;)
 
There is nothing that says you have to go from Dragon to Weapon in any near term time frame. If you step up to Dragon now, you save $3K. You can probably wait a very long time to go to Weapon if you don't find it compelling enough.

Going to Dragon today accomplishes 4 things:

1) save you $3K on the Dragon upgrade
2) Gets you some potential bonuses IF you decide to go to Weapon within the parameters RED sets for those bonuses.
3) Sets you up for the move to Weapon if you want to go there.
4) Gives you a great camera in the interim while you are figuring out your next step.

Seems like a winning move to me. (That's why I decided to do it.)
 
I went through this struggle last fall and decided to go in for Dragon. Ultimately, I think the question is your ultimate goal for the types of projects and clients you're seeking. My current clients and I have been ecstatic with the Epic MX, but in LA at least, producers have begun requesting Dragon for the more interesting & higher paying projects. That said, I was only able to send my Epic in for the Dragon upgrade this week as it's been working steadily since October. So, if your projects are entirely your own and there are no outside variables, then maybe your MX is plenty. The quality is there. But if you need the increased image quality (resolution, latitude, color, scan rate) of Dragon or you're in the business of renting your kit with/without with your services, then Dragon may be calling. Either way, you've still got a kick-ass camera.
 
I say just upgrade and if you're not satisfied, hustle harder to make that $ back.

BTW, pleeease say MX vs Dragon. Epic is both MX and Dragon. Dragon is Scarlet and Epic and Weapon. :)
 
There was lots of struggle here, again. All the same thoughts, including the one about selling my Scarlet and buying a new one.
In the end i happily paid for the upgrade two days ago. :)

Patrick said it, NOW IS THE BEST TIME - to have Dragon soon and getting the better upgrade-options to Weapon on top.

This second chance to get the upgrade for the original price-tag is going to be the last one.
 
For me it is simple. Upgrade, you will not be disappointed. Dragon is a sure step up on Epic and Weapon I am sure will be a step up on Dragon.
I have always taken the Up grades Red offers and never been disappointed. I did not give back my Red One MX, I still have it, I don't use it much any more, but the other day I took it out, up graded the firmware and shot, and the images looked great, but man, was it heavy...
Up grade...you will not be disappointed
 
I dropped my two MX's off at Irvine earlier this week for the Dragon upgrade, and spent some time with my Bomb Squad rep discussing the future...

As will be revealed to all at the start of N.A.B. - the future is bright!
 
Maik Müller said:
There was lots of struggle here, again. All the same thoughts, including the one about selling my Scarlet and buying a new one.
In the end i happily paid for the upgrade two days ago. :)

Patrick said it, NOW IS THE BEST TIME - to have Dragon soon and getting the better upgrade-options to Weapon on top.

This second chance to get the upgrade for the original price-tag is going to be the last one.
Click to expand...

Hehehe. Welcome to the Club Maik!
 
Just upgraded

Just upgraded

Share your dilemma, but RED have always exceeded expectations. Keep the faith. Just paid for the Dragon upgrade a couple of hours ago. Very excited about the future. Just do it....
 
Akin A said:
...BTW, pleeease say MX vs Dragon. Epic is both MX and Dragon. Dragon is Scarlet and Epic and Weapon. :)
Click to expand...

I was actually looking at it the other day and there is this constant confusion for folks not so well versed in RED lingo arising from the use of X's, M's and what not, as...:
X - can mean build type as in Epic "X" or Scarlet "X", but it also means the X-version of the Mysterium sensor
M - likewise M can mean the original Mysterium sensor or just the hand-build type Epic "M". Furthermore M can also mean Monochrome.
These leads to rather confusing use of these letters - even by folks here in RU.
So in reality there are currently these models of DSMC cameras (arranged by price) - and these are the "official" names from RED STORE:

$ 7.950: Scarlet - X
$ 14.500: Scarlet Dragon
$ 17.500: Epic - X - Mysterium - X
$ 20.000: Epic - X - Monochrome
$ 22.500: Epic - M - Mysterium - X
$ 24.000: Epic - X - Dragon
$ 25.000: Epic - M - Monochrome
$ 29.000: Epic - M - Dragon
$ 31.500: Epic - M - Dragon Monochrome
$ 50.000: Epic - M - Carbon Fiber

Given that the production was shifted to USA - I really hope that RED gets away with the X and M versioning for the type of build (mass-produced by casting vs hand-machined). That alone will simplify things a lot.
And while Mysterium X sensor is being phased out - there will be thousands of "MX" cameras still used in the wild for years to come - and as such there needs to be an easy way to distinguish between them for compatibility with various accessories.
Given that there really isn't any technical difference between the X and M variants - in terms of both specs / performance and the accessory compatibility - the names in the lineup could be simplified to:

Previous generations:
Red One M
Red One X
Scarlet X
Epic X (covering both Epic X-X and Epic M-X)

Current:
Scarlet D
Epic D (covering both Epic X-D and Epic M-D)
Weapon D

These would be the 5 main camera models for all given purposes and would simplify both current and future communications as the letter attached to each camera name is focused on the sensor used - not the "irrelevant" manufacturing differences.
The "speciality" versions would just have small letters added:

Epic X-m (covering both Epic X-X-Mono and Epic M-X-Mono)
Epic D-m (covering Epic M-D-mono)
Epic D-cf (covering Epic M Dragon Carbon Fiber)
Similarly any potential Weapon versions:
Weapon D-cf (only needed if there will be an actual non-CF version of the Weapon)
Weapon D-m (monochrome)
Weapon D-vv
Weapon D-65

This will also make it easy to later add the next gen of sensors, as long as their names begin with different letters...
I guess I better start a dedicated thread for this, as not to go OT here...

:sifone: Peter
 
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