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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Non-Linear Color Response?

To refer back to the images - try for yourself in RCX setting to default meta, drop the ISO to 320 then slide R and G channels to zero.

If all you have is a 60w tungsten lamp, then you're making a compromise - maybe a bigger one than you think, and its that which is the point IMHO. Adding or removing blue in tiny quantities is what produces the yellowing, and yet we're providing the camera with virtually no blue light to measure.

Taking the WB to 3200 effectively pushes the blue channel a stop over native, so at ISO 800 tungsten you're two stops pushed in the blue channel before you begin. A two stop push on Dragon material is mostly an OK proposition, but when your data is in the noise-floor murk you're lucky to get a picture, never mind an accurate one.

rgbtungsten.jpg
 
Stacey Spears said:
Do you have a list of known good brands? If so, is this something you are willing to share?
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A list for what sensor with what version of color science with what lens with what lighting on which actress/model with . . . no thanks. A movie camera has always had single primary job: make female skin look sexy. I'll bet there is an announcement waiting for us at NAB about Dragon color science :-)
 
John Marchant said:
To refer back to the images - try for yourself in RCX setting to default meta, drop the ISO to 320 then slide R and G channels to zero.

If all you have is a 60w tungsten lamp, then you're making a compromise - maybe a bigger one than you think, and its that which is the point IMHO. Adding or removing blue in tiny quantities is what produces the yellowing, and yet we're providing the camera with virtually no blue light to measure.

Taking the WB to 3200 effectively pushes the blue channel a stop over native, so at ISO 800 tungsten you're two stops pushed in the blue channel before you begin. A two stop push on Dragon material is mostly an OK proposition, but when your data is in the noise-floor murk you're lucky to get a picture, never mind an accurate one.

rgbtungsten.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks for this! I'll experiment with it tonight. For my simple mind in the meantime . . . to avoid having a model look sea sick green on Dragon + Tungsten . . . I need to make sure there is some blue content in my lighting source? I need to add blue to avoid a yellow/green tint and to enhance the reds in the skin tone?? Slushie brain freeze!!! ;-)
 
So when shooting with the Summicron-C that would require a matte box and 4x filters . . . there went the Movi
 
Just want to be clear about the makeup issue I have seen. It is not symptomatic of underlit footage or high ISO. I've shot hours and hours and hours of green screen under tungsten light with at least a hundred different actors over the last four years, usually rating anywhere from 400 to 640 and much of the time having the bright side of faces at 1 to 1 and a half stops over key (incident). This issue has popped up a handful of times and has never had anything to do with not having enough light or being at a high ISO. I understand it has to do with the blue channel being starved (tungsten light) but let's be clear that this issue is very present in normal shooting situations and not some low light exceptions. Using a bluish filter helps but DOES NOT eliminate the problem and isn't always practical, as it cuts a lot of light 1/2 to 1 stop. I would love to see the Dragon be able to render these tones properly as other cameras do.
 
Bob Gundu said:
Do those lenses take screw on filters?
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Nop. There's a couple threads there but not the screw in kind. The amazing engineers at Leica figured that only an idiot (me) would ever want to screw on a standard SLR Vari ND, Pola or CC filter. Would much rather use a Matte Box - looks way cooler - and chicks dig that ;-)

I got the clamp-on Arri LMB-25 since that is the lightest MB I could find. Still a beast when just a quick simple filter is needed and it doesn't exactly fit in a back pocket.

Between the no internal ND in Epic (yeah I know about the MM - I own one - it doesn't work with Angie DP's and kills at least 1.6 stops being on there) and these no thread Leica's . . . dude!

And then there's the matter of losing a stop or so to filtration from holding back R&G to favor Blue
 
Zeb B said:
. . . there went the Movi
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Your solution is called a Steadicam operator. The Movi is cute but a solution in search of a problem in most instances, and yes I've used it a few times. If you can afford Summicrons you can afford to hire a good Steadicam op who will make your footy look superb. Or go "House of Cards" style and shoot all your moves on a dolly with a kick ass dolly grip, probably the most underrated position on a crew, I've seen mediocre operators look amazing with a seasoned dolly grip and truly talented operators get fired because of bad ones. You really can't replace talent and experience with a bunch of RC helicopter parts.

As to the skin tone issue I've dealt with this on both the Alexa and the MX as well as other cameras and it is predominately a makeup issue. Hire a make up artist with some extensive experience with digital cinema, preferable union with some shows under their belt, doesn't need to be a key but should have at least a few years working with digital.
They know what to use and what to avoid and what works with what type of skin. If it's a critical project do a makeup test ahead of time. Again, talent and experience will win over technology every time (rant off ;).
 
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Evin Grant said:
Your solution is called a Steadicam operator. The Movi is cute but a solution in search of a problem in most instances, and yes I've used it a few times. If you can afford Summicrons you can afford to hire a good Steadicam op who will make your footy look superb. Or go House of Cards style and shoot all your moves on a dolly with a kick ass dolly grip, probably the most underrated position on a crew, I've seen mediocre operators look amazing with a seasoned dolly grip and truly talented operators get fired because of bad ones. You really can't replace talent and experience with a bunch of RC helicopter parts (Rant off ;)
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Very well said. Could not agree more.
 
Evin Grant said:
Your solution is called a Steadicam operator. The Movi is cute but a solution in search of a problem in most instances, and yes I've used it a few times. If you can afford Summicrons you can afford to hire a good Steadicam op who will make your footy look superb. Or go "House of Cards" style and shoot all your moves on a dolly with a kick ass dolly grip, probably the most underrated position on a crew, I've seen mediocre operators look amazing with a seasoned dolly grip and truly talented operators get fired because of bad ones. You really can't replace talent and experience with a bunch of RC helicopter parts. As to the skin tone issue I've dealt with this on both the Alexa and the MX as well as other cameras and it is predominately a makeup issue. Hire a make up artist with some extensive experience with digital cinema, preferable union with some shows under their belt, doesn't need to be a key but should have at least a few years working with digital. They know what to use and what to avoid and what works with what type of skin. If it's a critical project do a makeup test ahead of time. Again, talent and experience will win over technology every time (rant off ;).
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Respect to you Evin. You truly are in the professional game but your solutions at least triple the manpower of my next couple projects - all of which occur well outside the LA Union movie ecosystem and all have an unclear path to revenue. In fact I'm living out of my Jeep for a month in the back woods for one of them. Not many Union Stediguys or MUA's would want the magic of bunking with me for little pay ;-)

RED will get the color science worked out soon I'm sure. Moving on from this project - will use something like the attached grade to avoid the MU issue completely.

Cheers and goodnight

BTW: To the cost of the Summicrons: it's a whole lot cheaper to buy, use and sell than to rent this particular lens. I will be putting them on the market soon since my near future projects lend themselves more to small Canon's and LWZ's than high-end primes. So because I now own the Crons doesn't mean I'm rich and should hire a full crew. Owning is the frugal thing to do.

Oh and . . . while I have my fav Mod on the line . . . could you fix the typo in the thread title please?
 

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Evin Grant said:
As to the skin tone issue I've dealt with this on both the Alexa and the MX as well as other cameras and it is predominately a makeup issue. Hire a make up artist with some extensive experience with digital cinema, preferable union with some shows under their belt, doesn't need to be a key but should have at least a few years working with digital.
They know what to use and what to avoid and what works with what type of skin. If it's a critical project do a makeup test ahead of time. Again, talent and experience will win over technology every time (rant off ;).
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I just watched this past Wednesday's Criminal Minds (CBS) episode called The Edge of Winter. The show shoots on Epic MX and usually looks as good as anything else on television.

I don't know if the regular makeup artist was on vacation, they changed brands or what but the makeup was downright horrible on almost everyone in that episode. This was true for the black actors as well, even the darker skinned ones.

Of course, RED should do everything technically possible to mitigate these occurrences but a re-education of sorts may be in order for makeup artists dealing with the changing digital landscape.
 
Nice light test dude.
 
Concealers are the most opaque. They are formulated to prevent blotchy looking skin... They are meant to block reds from showing through. So, if your makeup is -red and your lights are -blue, yellow green is what you get. It makes sense.
 
Timothy Eaton said:
I have had the same or similar issues as Eric with yellow based makeup under tungsten light on Epic. Certain areas of the face begin to exhibit an unnatural yellow cast that's very difficult to remove. Under most circumstances it's just not an issue. In a few cases it was troublesome.
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I haven't found that to be the case. I usually grab the yellow vector and push it away from green and a little towards pink/magenta. I haven't seen anything so severe that couldn't be fixed.

...Although, Peter Jackson famously had to increase saturation on the set and change the make up for all of The Hobbit. ​But that was a couple of years ago; maybe things are different now.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/05/peter-jackson-reveals-the-red-epic-secrets-behind-the-hobbit-vi/
 
Hobbit issue was due to the use of 3d - nothing to do with Red.
 
Zeb B said:
Oh and . . . while I have my fav Mod on the line . . . could you fix the typo in the thread title please?
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Done, as to the rest, I'm a gear head, I love my toys, but I would never sacrifice my creativity for them. When I shot my personal short in 2012 I called in all my favors but I would have left the Epic and Optimos home if it meant not having my Steadicam op Liam and my 1st AC Sherri.
 
Evin Grant said:
Done, as to the rest, I'm a gear head, I love my toys, but I would never sacrifice my creativity for them. When I shot my personal short in 2012 I called in all my favors but I would have left the Epic and Optimos home if it meant not having my Steadicam op Liam and my 1st AC Sherri.
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You run with a completely different quality of herd than most of us my friend. Hope to see you at NAB
 
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