DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[Martin Stevens]

I couldn't resist. Even though I dislike highlight clipping, these particular photos are easily fixed with a simple grade.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Well, I am just glad to see some footage, feel privileged in a way and Mark has posted his reasons for shooting, and who are we to question him anyway.
I dont see this as a test in anyway shape or form, and feels its very unfair to question Mark about any of his reasons, we should be just pleased that he shared something.

Andrew.

its unfair because its not real power of Dragon and see people started to blame sensor with this video..clipping etc.
Guys most of the video shot on 17:1 the compression that you wouldnt use on your home videos with epic mx.i mean this is incredible cant think about how 3:1 looks on Dragon

 

[michael zaletel]

Very nice on iPad Retina.

 

[Joseph Coleman]

He's already stated that his intentions were to push the camera to its limits and see how it performs. That fact that he's getting such results at 17:1 compression should be seen as a positive result. If the whole thing was shot at 6:1 or 8:1 there would be 20 people on here saying they want to see higher compression ratios.

 

[António Fagundes]

I couldn't resist. Even though I dislike highlight clipping, these particular photos are easily fixed with a simple grade.

Wonderful!

How did you bring that back?

 

[Freya]

Rolloff in these cases can be easiñy adjusted with a simple S curve. Anyway, in the second frame the rolloff is very nice, IMO.

I'm also okay with the second image. It just looks like the sun to me, and the sun is very bright.
Doesn't look harsh or anything. I think it adds to the picture.

In the first frame, it is an issue tho.

Freya

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Mark which lenses did you use on this video? all canon lenses?

 

[Freya]

its unfair because its not real power of Dragon and see people started to blame sensor with this video..clipping etc.
Guys most of the video shot on 17:1 the compression that you wouldnt use on your home videos with epic mx.i mean this is incredible cant think about how 3:1 looks on Dragon

3:1 might just look similar.
6K is a huge jump in data. The more data you have then the more compressible it becomes usually.
There will almost certainly be diminishing returns quality wise with lower amounts of compression.

Freya

 

[Iannis Holwech]

its unfair because its not real power of Dragon and see people started to blame sensor with this video..clipping etc.
Guys most of the video shot on 17:1 the compression that you wouldnt use on your home videos with epic mx.i mean this is incredible cant think about how 3:1 looks on Dragon

Pay attention. You asked and was answered way back in the thread.
What more do you think you would see in these small jpegs.

Mark why there are no 3:1 compression shots

We shot 3:1 ... but couldn't see any difference, plus it really ate our cards up.

 

[paul schefz]

thanks mark...great test...makes me happy i ordered a long time ago, i have a feeling things are going to get a little crazy

you mentioned something about running the footage at 1/4 in RCX on your mbp retina....i have the top of the line and am able to run 5K at 1/8 right now....so 6K at 1/4 would be a dream....i understand that RCX is probably still in early beta and things are still getting tweaked but in general what can we expect from the software end?

also: not sure if you had the motion mount for this test? looks like that is a dream combo with the dragon...

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

As sensor resolutions increase, maybe RED needs to increase the compression ratios available so we can continue to get the same running time from our REDMAGs. 6k 17:1 is about the same bitrate as 4k 8:1, so it's not surprising its plenty for 1080p delivery...

 

[Freya]

Well I wrote about the dragon and Mark's new video for my new Dragon article:

http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/959-the-dragon-s-a-sensational-sensor?page=all

Probably not so much in the article that you guys don't already know as I'm sure you have all been following this stuff fanatically.
I'm thinking now I should have talked about the compression. Was intending to maybe add a bit more but the editor got carried away and published it straight away.

I'm thinking my graphic kinda looks like the back of a biker jacket now too, what the hey tho.

Freya

 

[Elsie N]

incroyable

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Mark thank you! From you shots I am sold cor my motorsports stuff ( and everything else!) bring it on Red team. Congratulations Nim, Jarred, Graeme, everyone from the Red Team. As soon as we get this in our hands we'll make you guys proud!

 

[Jeff McCoy]

This is VERY exciting stuff. Thanks for doing this test Mark. Red takes the lead yet again (well, they've had the lead for many years, but this confirms it again). I cannot wait to have a pet Dragon!!!

I am also interested if/when there will be native Dragon support in Premiere CC. David? I hope all aspect ratios are supported in Premiere this time; 5K HD with a red rocket enabled has been broken in Premiere 6 and CC since day 1 - but this is off topic for this thread, I know.

Thanks again Mark. Beautiful images and it shows a lot of fire power from this sensor. I suppose it's time to move some money into the Red account again! Thanks to everyone at RED for their continued hard work so we can all reap the rewards. I cannot believe RED hasn't even been around for 10 years and they are building bigger mountains and climbing them as well. Cheers!

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Thank you so much Mark, I never have said it ever before, while watching any "demo-reel", watching yours -- I got goose-bumps! Wonderful work.

You got a lot established in two days, in many ways, certainly thanks to the great crew you have, all in all: thank you. )

 

[paul schefz]

maybe this is a silly question but will FCPX be able to handle dragon raw files? or will we have to wait for apple for support? as much as i would love to have dragon asap, i would rather wait a little to not have to change my workflow...

 

[Jennifer Nicole Stang]

Very informative. Thank you, Mark! VERY exciting stuff. Looking forward to taming the dragon, myself!

 

[Brian Boyer]

I don't know if this will be the voice of reason or the voice of treason but I have mixed feelings about Dragon.

First of all, many thanks to Mark for doing these tests and putting himself out there for people to dissect under a microscope. Secondly, I think RED made some significant improvements and advancements they should be proud of.

I wanted to really like the images. I know this was more of a torture/stress test for Dragon, meant to see where the image excels and fails. I, like Antonio, was hoping for better looking highlight performance.

Mark says "Red Dragon now has the best highlight fall off I have ever seen from any digital camera. Beating film!" I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing that in these images. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing or too inexperienced to know the difference.

I know Mark may throw himself on the grenade and take responsibility for that but I don't think it has anything to do with him. I know he knows how to avoid breaking the image but that's not the point of a stress test is it?

It's not that the image breaks at a certain point - they all do. It's how the image breaks that usually sets it apart from less pleasing ones, at least to me. Almost all of the clipped highlights in these shots look unappealing to me. Maybe they're better behaved, but they're still not that attractive.

I realize many will disagree and it comes down to a matter of taste. I also must be willing to accept that RED and I just disagree on what looks best in this instance. Or, maybe I'm being unreasonable. I don't know.

Some people, especially DSLR shooters, will clip highlights all day long and not care as long as there's no noise in the image. They'll be pleased as punch and I look at their pics and think, "Yuck!".

Then, there's people like me, who don't mind a bit of noise (even a little bit excessive noise, as long as it's more organic looking - i.e. more pleasant to look at), if the highlights bloom and rolloff smoothly and the colors saturate nicely.

Those first people I mentioned probably look at the images I prefer and think, "Yuck! All that noise ruined this picture." I wish more organic looking clipping was as easily achievable as more organic looking noise.

1 or so extra stops in the highlights is very welcome and means, with care, an even better looking image is possible with Dragon than was possible with MX. Doing as Mark did when he exposed for the sky and then brought the rest of the image up should work really well because of the greatly reduced noise floor.

I was just hoping Dragon made more improvements in the area I think makes images better looking overall, in those instances where clipping is unavoidable or desirable.


As for new color science, I trust it's there, I'm just not seeing much evidence of it. These images look very reminiscent of MX. Perhaps a side-by-side comparison would make the differences more obvious. I thought it would be more apparent given it's a next-gen sensor. Maybe RED never intended to greatly alter the MX look.

One thing that occurred to me was maybe there's a version of RC3/RG3 tuned for Dragon (it would just be a metadata flag) that closely mimics their behavior on MX for backwards compatibility and a forthcoming RC4/RG4 that would better leverage the new color filter array in front of the new sensor.

But, Mark said he started with Redlogfilm so, even if my thoughts on RC4/RG4 are true, it wouldn't really affect what we see in some of these images. We don't which ones are RC3/RG3, though.

Dragon is a definite improvement and people will no doubt make stunningly gorgeous images with it. Based on these initial and admittedly limited tests, I'm guessing it's not going to change the landscape much. I don't think Arri or Sony are worried (ok, Sony might be a little worried).

The people who would've already shot on Epic MX will use Dragon and many will make it sing. Some who wanted to use Epic MX for certain things but ultimately opted not to for whatever reason will probably take another look at Dragon. Alexa lovers will probably not budge much at all. And film is still safe (for now) for those who prefer it.

I'm not condemning Dragon. These are just my initial thoughts and I may change my mind as more images roll out. Maybe I'm focusing on all the wrong things.

Thanks again to Mark and to RED for taking us this much farther.

 

[Burke Doeren]

Thank you for this brilliant review Mark! Stunning cinematography (as always), great compositions, smart tests, and excellent music.

I'm amazed you were able to cover that much ground in just a few days. I can't wait to see how everyone puts the DRAGON to good use!